The version above may be what they have in mind, but, maybe not.
I’m not certain how this happened, but the LA Times, not your average conservative cheerleader, published an opinion piece encouraging the addition of Bible study to public school curriculum.
Frankly, I’m stunned. Most public school personnel would call the ACLU and the police if a Bible was discovered on school grounds. Nevertheless, uniform curriculum would be strictly adhered to and the goal would be to raise seriously shameful illiteracy regarding scripture.
Why anyone at the LA Times would think that was a good idea is beyond me.
==============================================================================
Excerpts from the article:
“In a religious literacy quiz I have administered to undergraduates for the last two years, students tell me that Moses was blinded on the road to Damascus and that Paul led the Israelites on their exodus out of Egypt. Surveys that are more scientific have found that only one out of three U.S. citizens is able to name the four Gospels, and one out of 10 think that Joan of Arc was Noah’s wife. No wonder pollster George Gallup has concluded that the United States is “a nation of biblical illiterates.”
“One solution to this civic problem is to teach Bible classes in public schools. By Bible classes I do not mean classes in which teachers tell students that Jesus loves them or that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, but academic courses that study the Bible’s characters and stories as well as the afterlife of the Bible in literature and history. Last week, the Georgia Board of Education gave preliminary approval to two elective Bible courses designed to teach religion rather than preach religion. As long as teachers stick to the curriculum, this is a big step in the right direction.”
Read complete article here.
I Can Plainly See 
March 14, 2007 at 9:58 pm
Globalization has changed education. To be more specific I think the internet has made education more globalized one in the way we can access information instantaneously and two the way that this process has been integrated into the classroom. I know this is occurring in the higher education system as I am an undergrad and I can only assume the same is taking place in the k-12 classrooms. A site we like to use as a general education reference is theCareers and Education website.
March 14, 2007 at 10:31 pm
While it is possible to study the Bible as literature and it is done in some schools, I’m not a big fan of that approach.
On the one hand I do trust the power of the Word to transform lives regardless of who is teaching it. But I also don’t want atheists or even theological liberals teaching my kids the Bible. There are tons of churches in this country that I wouldn’t send my kids to. My own church has good, Bible believing pastors but we have lots of Biblically illiterate, apostate Christians running around.
March 14, 2007 at 10:59 pm
I must agree with Neil in that I am not in favor of looney lefties teaching children the Bible. Now, if this were a case of legitimate Biblical scholars I might support it… but these people will not be giving fair and objective reasoning when examining the Bible.
March 15, 2007 at 12:32 pm
The left is learning that they can twist the bible to suit their purposes. Give them the opportunity and they will have Jesus telling the kids to worship Mother Earth, accept and embrace homosexuality (among other types of fornication), and that it is their obligation to vote for the highest taxes possible to support the poor.
Kick voluntary association and free will out the door.
March 15, 2007 at 2:56 pm
Hi Hank
When a liberal organization requests bible study in a public school we must first ask why? I suspect that the motive hinges less on teaching the bible and more towards corrupting it.
Lord Crimson
March 15, 2007 at 4:46 pm
If you control the medium, you control the message. The Bible would be given as much authority and applicability as Ann of Green Gables and A Clockwork Orange.
Think of how popular angels were when “Touched By an Angel” was a hit on TV – pretty soon angels were everywhere, and became synonymous with faeries and leprechauns in Joe Average’s mind.
On the other hand, any time somebody tries to use the Bible against itself, they end up looking like Wiley Coyote opening another package from the Acme Manufacturing Co. – they are bound to fail.
March 15, 2007 at 6:06 pm
Hank,
I know the ACLU has done some questionable things and I understand that you utilize hyperbole when you say this:
However they did defend a Christian student’s right to include Jeremiah 29:11 in her yearbook entry (the school originally had it removed).
Here’s the story if you care to read it.
March 15, 2007 at 6:12 pm
Sorry for the back-to-back.
In Junior English @ a public school(1993) we read Jonathan Edwards’ “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.” This famous sermon contains many references to Scripture.
I can attest that no one called the police.
March 16, 2007 at 12:10 am
Within a context of literature there is no problem with using The Bible or any other sacred text from any other world religion. Also, to teach the core beliefs about a religion, within a world history framework, I’ve frequently used examples from the texts of the dominant relgion of that culture. I’ve even used the text to bring about a basic understanding of the underlying beliefs, which is a part of the School Board approved curriculum, to objectively frame the inputs that the religion made to a particular culture.
In no way do I endorse the view, although some of my students have asked me if I am Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Jewish, or Muslim after I have explained the principals of each belief and how it impacted culture. To leave out the cultural impacts that any religion makes upon that society is to deny that relgion has made impacts upon society, which is folly.
However, as I have probably stated more than once, and which MUST be the attitude towards discussion of religion in a public sphere:
there must be secular purpose;
its principal or primary effect must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion;
finally, the statute must not foster “an excessive government entanglement with religion.”
This is also known as “The Lemon Rule” and is Federal Law, and in this case, the Feds got it right!
March 16, 2007 at 12:12 am
I hope you don’t mind a shameless plug, about Relgion’s Role in the public Life.
March 16, 2007 at 1:36 am
When I first read this post, I felt very. . .confrused. . .had to go lie down. . .
But I agree with most of the commenters. The idea of the Bible in the hands of the State makes me shudder. In fact, religion of any stripe in the hands of any government just, ugh, nauseates me. So I find myself agreeing with A Voice of Reason on the Lemon Rule. . .
I have to say, though, I would have no problem with the idea if I could be certain that the teachers in charge of the curriculum were as responsible as the Voice.
March 16, 2007 at 1:54 am
Lewd,
You have a REAL point. Although some would say that my teaching crosses over, I am very careful, and very well versed in school law. A colleague of mine, a well meaning younger teacher had her students practicing meditation techniques.
I had to be kind, but as a staff member with a bit more experience, told her, that she needed to be careful as that was close to an endorsement of religion. It is so odd, my students can truly see the framework of Hinduism, Buddhism, (recently Judaism) and soon Christianity and Islam. I try to be fair and always relate the religious beliefs to the cultural mores that the regions of the world have today, but would never engage the class in meditation, group prayer, or chanting.
That is when all citizens regardless of their belief need to be concerned, as it is an “establishment” of religion. However, an educated person sees that religion has a major impact on the formation of cultural norms. To deny that is as much a form of bigotry as is to state that one set of beliefs is superior than another in a public forum.
March 18, 2007 at 1:20 pm
enjoyed reading the post and the comments here- learning from it- not sure that i know exactly what i believe is right or will work yet, or have even formed an opinion… but really good to think about… especially as my children will be getting older and eventually attending school.
March 21, 2007 at 7:44 pm
Always enlightening to read these comments. :) Great article, Hank!
I heard somewhere that the Bible, the classics, and Shakespeare are the most commonly-referenced works of literature in books. In order to even understand good literature, one must have some working knowledge of those three. I can really understand, then, why someone would want to teach them in an English class.
While I agree with A Voice of Reason regarding the problems with bad teaching, that can really be said about any subject matter. Bad teaching of American history is the reason why half of the country sneers at the South as backwards and racist. That doesn’t mean that we should stop teaching American history, though.
March 21, 2007 at 7:48 pm
As a historian of the American South I thank Theo for her comment- finally someone gets it.
March 21, 2007 at 9:26 pm
Thank you, JK.
My just-north-of-Boston hometown is incredibly racist. In fact, they were, at one point, fairly famous for it. Less than 2% of the town is minority. Black students are bussed into the town schools from inner-city Boston.
Yet, New England is thought to be the model of tolerance and virtue. No one really points out that the North had slavs, too, and they only really ended slavery when immigrants came over (long before the days of minimum-wage laws). No one points out that those workers were worse off, physically, than Southern slaves. No one points out that the South has racial tension because it actually has different races living there, in large numbers.
March 21, 2007 at 10:19 pm
One only has to remember the furor that busing has caused in Boston to see the thin veil of racism which is typified in many northern areas.
I don’t know if this is true or mere conjecture, but a History Prof of mine, from a long time ago, stated that Southerners seem to not be able to tolerate Blacks as a group, but get along fine with them individually. Northerners love blacks as a group, but don’t know any individually.
March 22, 2007 at 1:38 am
All – interesting points about the North and immigrants and real racism.
Hey – anybody seen Hank? I miss him. Maybe he’s on vacation?
March 22, 2007 at 2:02 am
that’s it… he must have gone to that place out in Arizona and gotten abducted by the….
This is The Supreme Martian. You will all die unless you forward unspecified millions of dollars to my Martian National Bank account.
;-)
March 22, 2007 at 5:40 pm
I miss Hank, too!
March 22, 2007 at 7:06 pm
During a news report about Britney Spears and her latest attempt at rehab, I saw Hank lurking in the background. He is either exhausted from blog-jousting with all of us or is stalking Britney. However I am still puzzled as to why he kept shouting, “I am Spartacus”
God’s speed Hank and hurry back!
March 23, 2007 at 3:38 am
Ello? Hank?
March 23, 2007 at 1:06 pm
I was wondering why I hadn’t stopped by here in a while, and now I realize it is because you haven’t updated. So what’s up?
March 27, 2007 at 5:14 am
The abysmal record of the Public School System in this nation to teach anything properly, makes me against them taking anything new on — I wouldn’t want them to hurt themselves.
Well, the teachers could teach union organizing, holding parents hostage and how to blame everyone else for their abject failures — they do have that mastered.
March 27, 2007 at 5:49 pm
Good point, GMS. Teachers have taken a lot of things on themselves that are not their job – like teaching students how to have sex. Perhaps if they were to eliminate the requirement that public school teachers act as substitute parents, they would have enough time to teach actual academics.
March 30, 2007 at 10:02 am
Here you go Theo….
Just one of the reasons why Public School teachers, who are mostly Democrats aren’t cutting it, and cheating children out of a solid education.
I told my wife before we were married that I would sell dope, or be a hit man for the mob before one of my kids had to set foot in anything but a Catholic School — she agreed, and at the time she was a Public School teacher.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200703/CUL20070330b.html
April 1, 2007 at 7:50 pm
Hank hello! Where are you? Do not make us worry. Please.
BTW I am stealing your Che sidebar image. K? Thanks!
April 1, 2007 at 8:46 pm
is hank fasting from blogging?
April 1, 2007 at 9:20 pm
GreetingsMySon,
Well, Santa Monica lawmakers aren’t public school teachers. ;) I don’t think that the teachers, per se, are the problem; it’s the idea that teachers are better than parents at teaching morals to children.
I survived public school and actually got a really good education. (All of my friends in college were amazed at my education – whether they went to public or private school.) Then again, we spent very little time on liberal feel-good stuff and a lot of time on, well, academics.
April 1, 2007 at 9:41 pm
Exactly!
April 2, 2007 at 9:32 am
theom…
I’m glad it worked out for you, but you know as well as I, there are exceptions.
The statistics simply do not show that the American Public Schools are even doing an average job as compared to the rest of the industrialized world, and the teachers unions are one of the main reasons for the low test scores.
The jury is in and has been for years. The Catholic Schools blow the Public Schools away and does it with far less money, and believe it or not, less child abuse. The sexual abuse in the Public Schools is horrific and yet not publicized.
Why? — Democrat birds of the feather flock and close ranks together — I suggest you do some research into the negative impact the teachers unions and the NEA have played with respect to this nations Public School System — for the most part they are turning out dumbed down dullards.
Every teacher function my wife dragged me to was spent listening to a bunch of freaking leftists, talking about their benefits, their summer vacation and how the parents were at fault for their students failures.
April 2, 2007 at 6:51 pm
Well, that’s convenient. Any time you see something that refutes an unsubstantiated claim, it’s an exception.
I do agree that teacher’s unions are horrible, mostly because teachers really aren’t in need of them and they are forced to join. Nevertheless, I suggest that you meander into suburban Massachusetts – not exactly the hotbed of conservatism – and see those public schools. They are BETTER than the parochial schools: my education blew away the education of people at the Catholic school in town. I dated a guy who went there, and the difference was comical. My mouth was hanging open when I saw how dumbed-down that curriculum was.
I had teachers who were educated at Harvard, Tufts, Duke, BC, and the like. During my senior year, my French class read books that were on the graduate level of elite colleges. One of my college quantum mechanics courses in college was basically 1/6th people from my high school – three of us, fourteen others. A half-dozen of us in my grade got 800s on the math section of the SAT.
Not even the best in the state… as good as or better than most private schools… and hands down, better than any parochial school I had seen. It’s not an exception; it’s suburban Massachusetts.
“Exception to the rule” doesn’t really apply. Public school CAN work — not by being an “exception,” but by hiring top-notch teachers and having incredibly high standards for academics. The latter is a direct effect of how much parents care about their kids’ educations. Again, highly educated parents care more and demand more.
I laugh at the “worse than the rest of the industrialised world” part. Everyone compares apples to oranges. We educate EVERYONE, regardless of ability; other countries put slower kids into vocational schools and don’t count them in their test scores. When they cut the low end of their bell curve off, yeah, their average moves up. It has nothing to do with our educational system and everything to do with the fact that we don’t kick slow kids out of school.
Several of my close friends are either new teachers or studying to be teachers. Two of them will go into teaching with Harvard degrees; one with an MIT degree… and yes, public schools. It’s not like they can’t do anything else with that brainpower: they are just incredibly passionate people.
Sorry, but I won’t stand for an unsubstantied assault on all teachers, simply because the ones in your area happen to be lousy. Don’t slam everyone because teacher’s unions have a stranglehold on the profession. Many people teach in SPITE of those, not because of them.
Clear?
April 2, 2007 at 10:42 pm
Thanks for clearing that up Bridget. I’m not a huge fan of public education, but my daughter did well with it too, though her teachers were not as educated as yours were. Seriously, I get sick of hearing how the US falls behind the rest of the “industrialized world” when I’ve never really seen any evidence of it. This certainly explains the stats.
April 3, 2007 at 2:59 am
The only thing that is clear is that your long winded, self serving, antidotal proof sources are not worth a hill of beans.
Bottom line — the public school system in this nation is not performing, and one of the main reasons is — unless you have a video tape of a public school teacher murdering a student and dismembering the body in wood shop; they can’t be fired. And even in this case you have to fire them with pay.
Leftist Public School Teachers fear performance based employment more than Islam, because they know they are not performing.
This nation is not getting it’s bang for it’s buck from public school teachers — however there are “exceptions.”
You really need to read, and research more to get you out of that little “exceptional” elitist world mind set you dwell in.
Clear?
April 3, 2007 at 3:57 am
And what do we have here — Hmmm!
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/13/national/main838207.shtml
April 3, 2007 at 4:13 am
And what do we have here? — But it’s not the public school teachers fault, they’re conservative Christians just following orders.
http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007/04/hostage_drill_at_nj_school_fea.php
April 3, 2007 at 2:38 pm
Al Mohler had a commentary on this, as usual I agree with Dr. Mohler wholeheartedly.
Click here for the commentary.
April 3, 2007 at 9:42 pm
Again, GMS, you see something with which you disagree and don’t even try to refute it – you just dismiss it.
You offer no proof.
You dismiss anything contrary to your narrow world-view as being “elitist” or “long-winded.”
May I point out that you may as well walk about with a sign saying, “I’m wrong and I’m too much of a snot to even consider another way of thinking!”?
Got it. My life is an anecdote; hundreds of high schools in my home state are anecdotes; one piece of news is Gospel. Got it.
April 3, 2007 at 9:56 pm
Thanks, Tammi. If your daughter can survive Cornell, she’s obviously well-educated.
Public school isn’t perfect, but it beats the alternative, which is educating only those who are wealthy enough to afford it on their own. I love the fact that we keep pushing people to be educated, even if they are immature or poor or not bright… I can only imagine the chaos that would come from having uneducated people running around and voting.
I would love to restructure public school to put more emphasis on academics, especially civics and science, but there’s many excellent public schools in the country. Just a matter of getting good teachers, rewarding good teachers, and setting up a system where students are required to work.
April 4, 2007 at 1:16 am
theb…….
When you improve your reading and comprehension skills get back with me.
Your “fallacious logic of exceptions” being Gospel reminds me of a saying:
“Her virtue was that she said what she thought, her vice that what she thought didn’t amount to much.” – Peter Ustinov
April 4, 2007 at 1:34 am
Don’t wonder about that? Sometimes? LOL.
April 4, 2007 at 8:08 am
Thank you for your latest insult. It is so absurd – after all, I don’t think I’m letting my 160 IQ go to waste here – that it is obvious that you are not even arguing against me or against my points; you’ve resorted the the lowest and the cheapest of attacks against a woman smarter than yourself. I suspect that you would never say such a thing to a man or to someone your age; I’ve known your kind and they reserve the crudest and most illogical of taunts for those deemed their natural inferiours.
I would be happy to debate you when you are able to debate point-by-point, without resorting to attacks on my person or my intellect; in short, when you have matured sufficiently to debate an intelligent woman without starting a dick-waving contest.
Tammi: It would just be worse!
April 4, 2007 at 2:51 pm
Oooo … that’s a scary thought Bridget.
PS. Remind me never to debate you! I forfeit:)
April 4, 2007 at 4:44 pm
It will take more than your word to convince me of your high I.Q.. — what you are inditing most certainly does not.
Your nothing but a dime a dozen femaNazi with a chip on her shoulder, over compensating and lying about her accomplishments based on her inferiority complex — inside, you know for a fact there are all kinds of things you cannot do that a man can — YOUR CONFLICTED ROSIE!
Your behavior is a stock response associated with femininism, which is a most flummoxing mental malady in many ways.
One malady associated with your bred I find fascinating is — usually unattractive women try to compensate for it with a pleasant personality but not in the feminist’s case.
Fascinating how you brought a Johnson into the matter…are we a might envious of that particular bit of anatomy?…was Freud right, or are you in dire need of a date?
You can get a date. Hang out down at the docks or at the discharge gate at a near by prison.
April 4, 2007 at 5:04 pm
It’s the teachers link to the left that is the problem plane and simple, genius.
Every thing the left touches it destroys.
“Nevertheless, we in teacher education do not have a stellar record of producing change agents, and we have failed at the task of policing ourselves.”
http://www.hoover.org/publications/ednext/3367276.html
April 4, 2007 at 5:37 pm
GMS,
Is this what they teach at Catholic schools? Bad grammar and amateur psychology? I thought they had a better rep than that…
By the way, there are things that women can do that we can’t (giving birth is a notable example), does that make us “inferior”?
Where’s Hank?
April 4, 2007 at 6:08 pm
Thank you, GreetingsMySon. :) I needed a laugh this morning… life in a law firm gets boring! :)
April 4, 2007 at 6:16 pm
Tammi ~ yeah, I try to avoid thinking of how much worse things could get. As someone said, you cannot reason a man out of that which he was not reasoned into in the first place… at least by educating everyone, we have a shot at reasoning people into ideas, however misguided those may be.
April 4, 2007 at 6:55 pm
Actually, I’m a product of the public school system and that is one of the main reasons my kids will never, “ever” step foot in one.
Point out the bad grammar loud mouth and try understanding what I actually wrote — there are tons of things women can do that men can’t and inferiority has nothing to do with it.
Let’s have it Laz, my Catholic Schooled, brilliant daughter bought me the “Painless Grammar” book by Rebecca Elliott, and it’s right here in front of me — let’s see what you got — “the proof of the pudding is in the taste.”
April 4, 2007 at 7:05 pm
Aha!
Aha! Aha! I say again and again.
No wonder AARP is such a left-wing abomination and an enabler of the Democratic Party.
It was founded by a retired school teacher.
http://www.cnsnews.com/facts/factorama.asp
April 4, 2007 at 7:05 pm
Laz,
I read the Stanley Fish article. Mostly very good, although it fails to address the issue of the fact that many non-Christians or nominal Christians will be exposed to the Bible if it were taught in public schools.
Thing is, there’s a lot of rumours running around about the Bible that certainly aren’t true (such as the anti-feminist nature of it, or the fact that it justifies anti-miscongeniation laws). If people actually read the text of it, they would at least know, for certain, what people are criticising.
April 4, 2007 at 7:10 pm
And so shall it be… you wrote:
It’s “You’re” not “your”, this is a grammatical error, happy? I suppose we can chalk this up to a public school education, right?
Is name-calling something you’re passing down to the next generation?
April 4, 2007 at 7:29 pm
Yes I am happy, thank you for you’re little, free grammar lesson. I believe I has it straight now.
theobro…?
All this time you spend on the WWW, doesn’t some how show up on on some poor smuck’s statement in the form of billable hours — Does it?
hee hee hee!
Oh, don’t get me started on lawyers!
PEACE BE WITH YOU ALL.
April 4, 2007 at 7:33 pm
Laz,
The “your” before “Rosie” ought to be “you’re” as well. “Over compensating” needs to be hyphenated.
“Feminism,” “breed,” and “nearby” are likewise misspelled.
“Grammar” needs a comma after it.
It’s the teachers link to the left that is the problem plane and simple, genius
needs to read, “It’s the teachers’ link to the left that is the problem, plain and simple, genius.”
See any others? ;)
April 4, 2007 at 7:40 pm
If you have it straight, why did you write “you’re”? After all, that would make the sentence read, “you are little, free grammar lesson.” Laz is most likely a human and not a grammar lesson of the minute variety; even if such were the case, you are missing an article.
I’m not unethical, so no, this doesn’t show up on someone’s billable statement. I do wonder, though, that you automatically assume the worst of someone you’ve never met. First I’m so heinous as to not be able to get a date except from recently paroled convicts; now, I’m so unethical as to charge people for bitch-slapping you into place. (Mostly, I get paid for bitch-slapping their opponents. This is just a warm up. :) )
April 4, 2007 at 7:42 pm
Proofreading, another thing women are much better at than men.
Good job T… I believe you got ’em all!
April 4, 2007 at 8:49 pm
I’m gonna have to let Tieki Rae know there’s a grammar battle over here. She’s the grammar queen — and graduated from the public education system nonetheless!
Hank needs to come back and reign this thread in ;)
April 4, 2007 at 9:49 pm
Rosie O, madame 160, you and Laz missed one:
“I believe I has it straight now.”
When a person is at work, they are paid to work.
If they are not working then they are a thief.
If you pick up the pace with respect to “your”
proof reading gig, the creative attorneys may be able to lower their clients legal fees — yeah right…mahahahah!
April 4, 2007 at 10:33 pm
Well, I only bill for time I spend on client matters, so I guess I’m missing your point. I mean, if there’s downtime in the office, should I gaze at my naval instead? Shuffle papers and charge for that? Or do what every other ethical person does and work 12 hours to bill 8?
In short, your assumption only applies to those who are only salary. :)
You’ve called me ugly, stupid, elitist, a thief, and a slew of other derogatory terms, simply because I stated that I happen to think that public schools are not, per se, bad institutions and that public school teachers are not uniformly nor universally soul-sucking leftists.
I’m done.
April 5, 2007 at 1:47 am
I’m not because I am aware!
” between 6 percent and 10 percent of public school children across the country have been sexually abused or harassed by school employees and teachers.”
****100 times the abuse by priests****
“To support her contention, Shakeshaft compared the priest abuse data with data collected in a national survey for the American Association of University Women Educational Foundation in 2000. Extrapolating data from the latter, she estimated roughly 290,000 students experienced some sort of physical sexual abuse by a school employee from a single decade—1991-2000. That compares with about five decades of cases of abusive priests.”
Such figures led her to contend “the physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests.”
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/4/5/01552.shtml
April 5, 2007 at 1:57 am
Yes, but they are soul sucking Democrats who are in lock step with the left, therefore what’s the difference.
Bitch-slapping? You should be ashamed of yourself.
April 5, 2007 at 6:50 pm
Good to see my profession is thought of so highly. I guess I should have stayed in Law after finishing the coursework to be really appreciated.
I work in the public schools for the same reasons I served in the armed forces. I felt it was a way to give back to my community. I also know that there are some, a VERY small majority of teachers who are incompetent and may not care. I also know that there are many parents who really don’t value education, and they show that by the choices they make.
While teachers are the most important factor towards student achievement, and I can send you the research as I am writing my disseration on this topic concerning teacher efficacy, is the most significant correlate of what “schools” can do with regard to student achievement, it only makes up about 10% of the variance in student learning. That means that 90% is from something else.
Oh, and most my sources are from the Brookings Institute and the Hoover Institute, so I’m not quoting Left only sources.
Unions are a part of the problem, and sometimes tenure laws contribute, and trust me, the VAST majority of teachers don’t want to teach about social agendas, but often have them mandated by the states.
The reason that SOME parochial school students fare better, and I’ve worked for them also, is because typically, these parents are wealthier, better educated, and more involved – often due to the real fact they have more time to give towards their children’s education.
Public schools aren’t the enemy. The vast majority of the teachers in them want what you want; for your children to be good citizens.
April 5, 2007 at 7:19 pm
We can start this discussion with the following:
You stated voice:
“While teachers are the most important factor towards student achievement…”
…Then, if you will, tell me the quantifiable means in which students academic success or failure translates to your keeping or loosing your job, or for that matter your pay structure.
If teacher’s unions are a problem — then why do teachers approve of them if teachers are just like me and want what’s best for the students.
April 6, 2007 at 1:52 am
The quality of the teachers are the most important under the control of the school, that is true, however, it still only accounts for 10% of the variance in student achievement, which is not a significant amount.
Teachers unions are a problem at times, that is true, but they also serve a very important function as all collective bargaining units do. I’m pro-union, sorry. I know that many on the right want to go to the good ole’ days prior to CBU’s in all areas of the market place, and why anyone in the working and middle class would side against their own is beyond me. I guess they just trust the wealthy to do the right thing.
With regard to your second question, I’m not sure I like the tone if it is directed to me personally. My students have fared very well by valued added measurements in all the required annual testing. Last year, 72/74 scored very highly, and two learning disabled students, while they improved still need remediation. I happen to take my job seriously.
I happen to work in a very good school, which is mostly due to the economic and background of the parents. Many friends of mine who is certainly as qualified as I am work in very poor schools, and their results are not as positive. Some of the problems are systemic, but research has shown repeatedly that factors outside the school’s domain, societal issues, are typically more linked to a lack of student achievement.
I am making the switch to administration, and “fully” understand that CBU’s are a double edged sword, but with the present shortage of qualified teachers, particularly in secondary math and science, who would work in those fields when you consider the difference in payment that can be obtained by working in the private sector?
Also, public schools don’t choose who they teach, but parochial schools “always” have the option to say no to any child they do not want in their school. That is a huge difference.
April 6, 2007 at 2:20 am
A Voice of Reason???????????????????
“The quality of the teachers are the most important under the control of the school, that is true, however, it still only accounts for 10% of the variance in student achievement, which is not a significant amount”
My God it’s like discussing the security of a cheese factory with a fat rat.
You Sir will loose all credibility with the making of that statement unless you provide a reliable proof source — I will not even read one more word of what you wrote until I see it.
So the quality of the teaching function is only 10% — hmmm! — Man does that open up a can of worms with respect to teachers pay, their true worth, and could explain their efforts to socially engineer America and why they need a union.
But I’ll wait to hear from you before risking that my tone is taken the wrong way.
And please teacher remember, “Brevity is the soul of wit.” — seriously, facts not long stories — provide a crediable link.
April 6, 2007 at 5:18 am
Short and sweet teacher:
“A recent study by Caroline Hoxby at Harvard University found that, among public school teachers, the average SAT scores upon entering college fell in the 35th percentile in verbal and the 44th percentile in quantitative skills. This means that the people who are educating our next generation come on average from the lower half of the college achievement spectrum.”
Are you sure you want to take me on? — Much more to follow if necessary.
April 6, 2007 at 1:27 pm
GMS,
I possess a BS in Ancient History with a minor in Theology, a Master’s in Education, A Juris Doctorate, a Professional Diploma in School law, and am halfway towards an Ed.D.
Since you are so intelligent you can look up some research yourself. I suggest you look up studies by Eric Hanushek of Stanford University.
While 10% of the variance is important, 90% of the variance in student learning comes from other factors, must notably home factors. Read the research done by the Effective School Movement, and The Coleman Report.
And, yes, I do support unions for teachers and wish they were expanded to other labor functions in the public and private sector, as a safeguard to the “White collar slavery” in corporate America, and to safeguard against some people’s views that professionals/paraprofessional be treated as well as the hired help around the home.
I know about that report you cite, and I am also concerned about it. My dissertation concerns iteself with Teacher Quality, NCLB HQT Status, and Teacher Practices Towards Performance Indicators.
BTW, having worked in parochial schools, as bad as it is in public education, it’s worse in private where there are no standards regarding teacher quality required by statute. The other “90%” of the variance is in play with the parochial schools. To disregard 90% and harp on 10% is assinine.
April 6, 2007 at 1:28 pm
BTW “loose” was not the correct word. You get points off for poor grammar.
April 7, 2007 at 2:15 am
Just as I thought — Unable to provide a credible link to prove that a teachers skills only accounts for 10% of the factors played with respect to a students learning success — How self serving and convenient for a failed profession — You Sir are a fraud and a liar. The real world knows better, and a creative, talented and dedicated teacher means every thing to a student. You should be fired on the spot with that horses ass mind set.
I take it your Marxist animus believes 90% of a students ability to learn is based on socioeconomic factors which is a stock tenant of Marxism. Great teachers have gone into the worst ghettos on earth, taught out of trailers and improved the poor souls learning abilities that were previously hampered by your breeds bigotry of low expectations and lousy stinking unions.
Only American Bolshevik teachers would come up with the “10% damage control” canard. In Red China teachers are revered because the Chinese know how vital they are — Chairman Mao Tse-tung the murdering Marxist was a teacher — In the Soviet Union teachers earn more than Doctors. In this country we put up with the bottom of the barrel and do not tie in teachers ability with their compensation, and academic successes.
What governs whether an American teacher stays or goes when enrollment drops off is seniority and not the ability to teach a needed subject. Therefore, in America today we have mostly the wrong people teaching the wrong subjects throughout the public school system, and this pernicious paradigm has been going on for decades. The private schools can hire and fire teachers quickly to provide expertise to the subjects that are needed. In many of the public schools you have gym teachers with seniority teaching mathematics.
THE NERVE OF A UNION BOLSHEVIK SAYING THEY TOOK THEIR UNION JOB FOR THE BETTERMENT OF MANKIND —Some dumb damn Americans will fall for anything!
“Teacher, teach thy self!”
April 7, 2007 at 10:27 am
“I believe that what is wrong with our schools in this nation is that they have become unionized in the worst possible way,” Jobs said. “This unionization and lifetime employment of K-12 teachers is off-the-charts crazy.”
http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/02/16/jobs.dell.share.stage/
April 7, 2007 at 10:40 am
“Teachers earn more per hour than architects, civil engineers, mechanical engineers, statisticians, biological and life scientists, registered nurses, university-level foreign-language teachers, and editors and reporters.”
http://www.hoover.org/publications/ednext/3347411.html
April 7, 2007 at 4:36 pm
So, Unions are bad.
You can’t read. Go to Google, and do a search under Eric Hanushek. He has many online references, emprical studies, meta – analyses on the topic of factors concerning student learning, particularly focused on the impact of the quality of the teacher.
As I’ve stated, and from his and others (Rivkin, Kain, Ravitch, Finn – most from the Hoover Institute, hardly a bastion of liberalism, have done similar studies – You can also get most of their studies online, I’m not your “gofer”)
Your words:
Great teachers have gone into the worst ghettos on earth, taught out of trailers and improved the poor souls learning abilities that were previously hampered by your breeds bigotry of low expectations and lousy stinking unions.
Comment: What’s your point? I guess they are underpaid. Who the hell are you to think about “MY” low expectation. I have very high expectations, and my students perform well. I also understand, unlike you, that factors such as single parenthood, parents with no English language skills, poverty, high divorce rates in families, among other factors, also impact a child’s learning.
I’ve read the links posted, and actually have them on my site, so what’s the news. I never said teachers were underpaid, did I? I also fully admit that teacher’s unions bring along problems, but that they do need to exist if only to protect workers from people such as yourself if such people were in authority to do something.
You have an agenda it would seem. Is it to destroy public education? My agenda in the classroom is helping kids, as a future administrator it will be to make a school biulding more efficient and effective.
One last comment, “stay in your ignorance”. It is telling when a fanatic goes off on a topic where I advocated support of having inputs of the Bible and other relgious texts from a literary standpoint in a public school, even though other fanatics from the secualar vantage point would see this as an establishment of religion.
Glad you read EdNext, it is a provocative publication, which has many good research summaries, and I wonder if you know that the Hoover Institution which I mentioned publishes it.
Well, I’m done with this post for sure. I certainly have other things to do than have a debate with an ideologue.
April 8, 2007 at 6:12 am
As long as 90% of our children are educated by teachers represented by a union with tenure, their education will be sub par and will continue a dumb down spiral.
Teachers’ Unions prevent inferior teachers from being fired and superior teachers from being hired.
Why?
“The sad truth is that excellence makes people nervous.” – Shana Alexander
Teachers only account for 10% of the variables involved with a child’s ability to learn? — Only a putz would believe such a thing! And only a bigger putz would want public school teachers to teach the Bible in such a failed forum.
Debate over, I got the last word and will not visit this thread again.
April 10, 2007 at 11:06 am
[…] public schools. You can read his post, which includes a link to the original article in the Times here. What follows below is my comments on what this young man has to say. If the Bible were taught as, […]
April 14, 2007 at 1:18 pm
Where are you Hank? I am so very worried!
It has been exactly one month since your last posting.
Please at least let us know you are ok.
Please!
April 14, 2007 at 3:24 pm
MAJOR DITTO MARKS ON NUMBER 75!!!
April 14, 2007 at 7:00 pm
Hank,
I also hope you are OK. Although Neil tells me that he contacted you and you are fine, just busy.
Anyway, I am confused by the statement that most school personel would call the ACLU is a Bible was found on school grounds.
My son is in public school and just had an assignment to write a children’s book telling about the life of Jesus and the early history of the church.
I just read a story where Kirk Cameron talked about being invited to a public school by the principal and how he spent an entire afternoon witnessing to students at the invitation of the school.
Am I the only person who remembers the brightly-colored New Testiments handed out every year by the Guideons? Was it just MY school district?
Our High school has a school-sponsored Christian club. there are NO other school sponsored religious clubs in the school. Just Christian.
My kids say the pledge of allegiance with “under God” in the pledge every day.
They sing Christmas carols and the my son’s second grade teacher read a story about how a little girl found “the true meaning of Christmas” at a Christmas mass.
I don’t understand why people think that there is no Christianity allowed in public schools? Have people who believe that even been to a public school?
Or is it just Minnesota?
April 14, 2007 at 10:06 pm
Thanks Teresa
I feel much better now. I still miss his articles. :)
Busy is busy though…
April 15, 2007 at 3:46 am
Why? Because there are demagogues (gasp!) on the conservative side of the coin as well.
Demagogues that would have us believe the worse about others who hold different convictions.
April 18, 2007 at 2:46 am
I checked in to see if there was more info on where frank is? I see that Neil says he is okay. That is good. Hank, I hadn’t been to your blog long before you disappeared, but I really count it as one of my favorites for sure. Hope you post again some day. And I pray everything in your life is okay.
April 18, 2007 at 2:48 am
sorry I have no clue why i just typed FRANK that is what happens when you type while watching tv’s. HA.
April 20, 2007 at 1:04 am
I haven’t been able to read all the comments, so perhaps the point has been abundantly made: ideas have consequences. What people think and believe influences what they do. Duh. Judeo-Christianity is just about the central element of Western thinking that brought together the Greco-Roman and Germanic cultural/social/political idea-systems into what we have inherited as Western Civilization–with its trivial stuff like human rights, limited government, individual freedom, democracy, capitalism, parliaments, science, …
You can’t understand these things without understanding Christian faith in God’s love and redemption of the world.
Socialists and atheists would like people to think that their tribal values are the source of these things–it is a lie. Tribal values gave us, well, tribes.
God bless,
D. Ox
April 20, 2007 at 3:01 am
Well said Ox! Well said.
April 29, 2007 at 3:45 pm
Um…isn’t the entire Bible completely about tribalism? I think it’s funny that you think people who reject a book that spends all it’s time talking about who begat who and what tribe they belonged to and detailing tribal laws and customes, and telling tribal history have “tribal values” and then denigrate them for it.
That’s just funny.
April 29, 2007 at 3:45 pm
Funny weird, AND funny haha.
June 3, 2007 at 4:38 pm
It’s a plot.
I just don’t trust this one.
:)
June 7, 2007 at 1:51 pm
Dude, where are you?
June 8, 2007 at 3:24 am
What TotalT said. ^
June 10, 2007 at 4:41 pm
Hi t & v,
A most excellent question.
the Grit
June 13, 2007 at 10:30 am
It’s my understanding that anything funded through the government is to be secular in nature. Or atleast not promote one religion over another. Isn’t that in the American constitution?
I also find it odd how every discussion on the matter always seems to break down into extreme hyperbole in a short period of time. You can disagree without being disagreeable, no?
July 18, 2007 at 3:39 pm
Your hatred for Democrats and/or Liberals shows you have gotten off Jesus’ message. Why not spend your time loving instead of hating? “Christians” like you, and others, are why so many people are turning away from religion. Who, in their right mind wants to believe in a god created by the maniacal (male) zealots of the middle-east thousands of years ago? Get a grip. Look around. These people have been at holy war since they reached the ability to communicate.
Religion is a way to control the masses through fear. The idea that any man is half-god or that there are gods in the heavens or A god in A heaven is plain antiquated.
I don’t doubt Jesus lived and was a really nice person with a really great message. Why don’t you copy his methods? Is Jesus’ message a message of love, or hate?
Better yet, believe in yourself and your family and your country by helping people rather than curse opposing ideologies.
You can choose to believe whatever it is that you believe, but that doesn’t make you right…or good.
July 18, 2007 at 3:51 pm
PTM,
Your comment is truly astounding mainly for its inconsistency.
You accuse others of hate but does the phrase “maniacal (male) zealots” come from love?
Interesting that you are able to identify Jesus’ message but let me ask you, what, according to you, is His message? How do you know that what you consider His message is truly His message?
July 18, 2007 at 5:17 pm
As Laz noted, Jesus’ message was that He was the Son of God, come to redeem the world. Everything else (changing the Old Testament ceremonial requirements, etc) was secondary. Fluff, if you will, compared to “No one comes to the Father, except through me.” (John 14:6)
Furthermore, if the message of Jesus is so good (except for that pesky God stuff) why did he say it, if it is not true? As CS Lewis famously asked, is he a liar or a lunatic?
July 18, 2007 at 5:38 pm
How is this comment thread still alive…wow!
July 18, 2007 at 8:57 pm
PTM,
You still haven’t answered how you know what Jesus’ message is not to mention how you can be so certain that your version is really what He truly said.
Of course, the best thing to do when one is unwilling to discuss matters is to be illogical and succumb to silliness.
July 19, 2007 at 1:02 pm
“As Laz noted, Jesus’ message was that He was the Son of God, come to redeem the world. Everything else (changing the Old Testament ceremonial requirements, etc) was secondary. Fluff, if you will, compared to “No one comes to the Father, except through me.” (John 14:6)”
“PTM,
You still haven’t answered how you know what Jesus’ message is not to mention how you can be so certain that your version is really what He truly said.”
My mention of Jesus’ “message” was the message he communicated via “love thy neighbor”, he supposedly was about loving, forgiving, and healing. you are not. you are all about hatred. one only needs to read this blog to see the blood of hatred dripping from your message. hatred not only for your fellow countrymen, but anyone that disagrees with your political opinion or you theological opinion.
As far as, ““No one comes to the Father, except through me.” (John 14:6)” That sounds like a line from the godfather movie.
If you choose to believe what some unknown persons from the middle east wrote down all those thousands of years ago as the truth then good for you and that’s fine with me. But when it’s used to kill people and start wars and spread hatred then it is not what it represents itself to be.
The bottom line is, it doesn’t matter what Jesus’ message was, or whether he even lived. If I choose to not put the ancient middle east religious curse of fear that god will get me and send me to burn in eternity, then I don’t have to worry about it, right? I don’t believe in other fairy tales either, though some have wonderful and useful morals/lessons to ponder. The Bible has some great lessons in it, the 10 Commandments are a great guide for living in a civilized world. I personally believe that we would have figured out that it’s not good to lie, cheat, steal, make love to your neighbors wife, kill (and the other Commandments) eventually anyway, but hey, the 10 Commandents and the dramatic story of their delivery to the people are a very effective way to get people to remmember that it ain’t cool to kill. It’s what you CHOOSE to believe, right? Can you prove he lived? Can you prove your god is THE god, like all others whoever had a god before you believed that their god was THE god? No, you can’t. So you write a book, a bible, or a letter to Virginia explaining that her mean little friends are wrong:
“Virginia, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except they see. They think nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men’s or children’s are little. In this great universe of ours man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect, as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.
Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Clause.
He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life at its highest beauty and joy. Alas! How dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Clause! It would be as dreary as if there were no Virginias. There would no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.
Not believe in Santa Clause! You might as well not believe in fairies! You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the chimneys on Christmas Eve to catch Santa Clause, but even if they did not see Santa Claus coming down , what would that prove?
Nobody sees Santa Claus, but that is no sign that there is no Santa Clause. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see.
Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that’s no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and un-seeable in the world.
You tear apart the baby’s rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, not even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived, could tear apart.
Only faith, fancy, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, Virginia, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.
No Santa Clause! Thank God, he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand years from now Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he will continue to make glad the hearts of children.”
The New York Sun,
September 21, 1897
Like santa, god is a myth. the biggest myth ever created by man. If you believe in god, why not believe in ET activity. you can’t prove whether we have visitors from outer space here either. It’s all a choice.
Like Virginia, there are many people in the world that need something to believe in something because there’s a reward. Virginia believes that if she DOESN’T believe in Santa, then she won’t get any toys for xmas. Christians believe if they DON’T believe in Jesus and his daddy, god, then they won’t get to heaven, what’s worse, they will go to hell and burn forever and ever in some cases.
It is difficult to debate you on this page, but I will say that my god is common sense. My parents taught me right from wrong and sent me to church as I grew up. I take what’s useful in the real world from it and disregard the rest. I feel that folks like you would better serve the god you purportedly believe in by packing your clothes and sending yourselves on a mission to say, New Orleans, or Africa, or even downtown to help the homeless, ANYTHING that helps somebody will make you feel a lot better on a daily basis than arguing and hating people who disagree with what you believe in.
You say, “PTM,
You still haven’t answered how you know what Jesus’ message is not to mention how you can be so certain that your version is really what He truly said.”
“It depends on what the meaning of IS, is.” -President Bill Clinton
Go and help somebody, cleanse yourself of this hatred for others by helping those less fortunate than yourself.
July 19, 2007 at 2:21 pm
PTM,
He communicated? Again you refuse to answer how it is you are so certain that this was what he said.
Seriously, it’s self-defeating to come out and start quoting who in your blindness were “unknown persons from the middle east”.
I fail to see how anything I have said on this thread constitutes hatred and I challenge you make your case (of course if we can agree as to what exactly “hatred” much less why we OUGHT not to hate).
I thought this was interesting,
So are you saying ‘love thy neighbor’ is used for these purposes? LOL. I must remind you that most if not all wars begun on ‘religious’ premises are the result of power hungry popes, kings or what have you.
Blaming faith in God for things like the Crusades et al. would be akin to blaming atheism for what men like Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao Tse-Tung have done.
Well why are you ‘quoting’ Him? Isn’t it strange to quote someone who didn’t live (in your opinion)?
You have missed the point of the Bible. It is not a rule book nor a morality play. Yes the 10 commandments are somewhat self-evident, no? Other traditions have moral codes similar to these 10.
The main point of the Bible is not that we OUGHT to follow rules (we have thousands of religions that do that), the point is that we as human beings are UNABLE to do the things we know we OUGHT to do. We are unable because we live in a broken world, read the front page or do a cursory study of history and tell me otherwise.
The thrust of the Bible is that through God in the flesh, Jesus Christ, we can be redeemed and be restored to unbrokeness. You will not understand anything else beyond this for your mind is shut as is your heart(as was mine 4 years ago).
No I cannot prove these things to you, I don’t have Marty’s DeLorean to take you back to these times. Very similar to your or anyone else’s inability to prove anything about past events. We accept historical events on authority do we not?
You saved your best for last P,
I agree that we OUGHT to help others but Jesus said go beyond that and love your neighbor regardless of race, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, religion. We OUGHT not to hate, how can we say we love God and hate others?
The problem is that we are unable to these things in our natural states and no amount of rules/codes/commandments will change this.
Let me ask you a question: In your view, why should we help the less fortunate? Whatever for?
July 19, 2007 at 9:11 pm
Well, genius, did it ever occur to you a) to read the Bible yourself and find out what Jesus really said, or b) that the Bible predates the Godfather by roughly two millenia, give or take a few years?
So you’ve said that Jesus’s message is a good one, presumably because it sounds like something from the Godfather…?? What is this: Love thy neighbour until you send him to sleep with the fishes?
July 19, 2007 at 11:38 pm
theobromophile is getting a little testy calling me “genius”, so I guess it’s time to hit the trail before the hate hits the wall.
It’s a small world, we all need to learn to live together whatever our beliefs, if not we are doomed as humans.
I wish you the best.
July 19, 2007 at 11:47 pm
I’m a redhead. I don’t get “testy;” I get fiery. Or even.
July 20, 2007 at 3:35 am
heh. If only it were that easy. Pie in the sky fantasies are just that, fantasies.
theobromophile
From one “fiery” red head to another. I like your style!
August 5, 2007 at 12:12 am
Hank
Just popping to say hello. :)
I hope you are having a great summer!
August 26, 2007 at 1:06 am
Hi Hank,
Any luck on a new computer yet? We miss your blogging. :)