Last weekend, gatherings around the country took place consisting of people of various schools of thought about America and the war on terror. For primarily political reasons, the war in Iraq and the war in Afghanistan have become mutually exclusive. Somehow, fighting a war in Afghanistan against Islamist thugs is different from the war against Islamic thugs in Iraq. Nuance isn’t my strong suit.
Attendance was fairly light as a percentage of the population but it was chilly and all. News coverage was equally light considering the gravity of the situation in Iraq . Even those bloggers I know who hit the streets with the “Impeach Bush and Cheney” signs had little to say about the events.
Of course, we all saw highlights of the Washington, DC protest featuring Hanoi Jane and those cute Code pink mavens and my favorite America hater, Cindy Sheehan. Accompanying the professional civil disobedience crowd were all the usual suspects: ANSWER (communist front group), NOW, PETA, Sierra Club, Muslim Students Association, the “Bush and Moussad did 911” screwballs, and a wide variety of anarchist, anti-globalisation and anti-capitalist groups and many other America Last organizations. We musn’t leave out representatives of the Hollywood office of the foreign policy institutes and war colleges and the “I act, therefore I’m brilliant” club.
This comes as no surprise and is guaranteed by the Constitution.
What is surprising was a seeming disregard for just who the enemy is and why we fight.
Rather than launch into everything I have learned about Islamic ideology and theology, I’ve decided to list some references. With a world of work to do most folks will not have the time to study as I have. You’ll need serious motivation to gain a command of this stuff. However, most of life is incremental and this is the way I became more and more well informed and I’m very glad I did.
So, here goes: Hotair.com, a great video source, Jihadwatch.com for a daily worldwide sampling of terrorist activities and commentary, Islamistwatch.com for a serious archive of resources. Memritv.com, a look at middle eastern TV news, and shows with the regional perspective in mind. And Daniel Pipes, an educator and authority on Islam. Careful, you just might get hooked.
I could blather on and on about those who do not support our country’s effort to suppress those who would enslave mankind in a medieval soup of punishment and barbarism, none too pleasant compared with civilization as we know it, but I won’t.
I could also speak volumes about the treatment women suffer if they adhere faithfully to the teachings of Mohammed (PBUH) and mind their men, but anyone with eyes can see.
Let’s see what the experts say from a 21st century perspective about a 7th century vision of the world and all that it entails over the months ahead.
I hope you come along for the ride.
I Can Plainly See 
February 1, 2007 at 10:18 am
So now we’re fighting against religious ideals? Good…at least now we can officially make it a “holy war” and stop kidding ourselves…
February 1, 2007 at 10:36 am
Yeah.
I am with you.
Lets start our crusade in Saudi Arabia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_arabia
They do not have democracy!
A Monarchy in the 21st century?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Saudi_Arabia
It surely is not acceptable that a country should be ruled (owned by) a family, is it?
And the power to rule is inherited?
Should we not democratise the whole of middle east.
Why just Iraq and Iran?
Islam is a religion.
It should not be a constitution of a country, should it?
It is? In Saudi Arabia?.
A country being run according to the “ideology and theology” you so much hate.
Oh! talk of their legal system!
Would you believe that the follow the Shari’a law?
Which as you so accurately described as “enslave mankind in a medieval soup of punishment and barbarism, none too pleasant compared with civilization as we know it”.
Would you believe …”judges are free to impose capital punishment, corporal punishment, including amputations of hands and feet for certain crimes such as murder, robbery, rape, drug smuggling and for various forms of sexual behavior such as homosexuality and adultery. The courts may impose less severe punishments, such as floggings, for less serious crimes against public morality such as drunkenness [[5]]…”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia
80 lashes! for buying, selling or drinking alcohol or injecting drugs.
40 lashes!(only) for ‘fornication'(premarital sex).
Stoning! for adultary!!!
Amputations! for theft.
Can you imagine what that would mean in modern day USofA?
Nearly every american citizen an amputee! with scars on their backs? preposterous.
Or worse, headless!! eeek!
And those poor children, would you believe what they learn in schools?
“…..The study of Islam remains at the core of the Saudi educational system. The Islamic aspect of the Saudi national curriculum is examined in a recent report by Freedom House.[11] The report finds how, in religious education classes, children are taught to deprecate other religions, in addition to other branches of Islam. The discussion of other religions in a favourable light is forbidden. The Saudi religious studies curriculum is taught outside the Kingdom in madrassas throughout the world….”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_arabia
And talk of the cradle of islamic terrorism.
Where did it all start?
Mr Bin Laden and his notorius al-Qaeda?
That is right.
In Saudi Arabia.
It is not just our responsibility, but a duty to deliver the unfortunate citizens of Saudi Arabia from this cruelty and evil.
Lets do it.
Lets up arms and march in to Riyadh.
And not stop till the House of Saud is deposed and the country is rescued back from the “7th century”.
Forwaaaaaaaaaaaard March.
What did you say?
There is no need to invade Saudi Arabia?
They have already agreed to sell us oil?
And ONLY FOR DOLLARS?
And we can forget the other
rhubarbrhubarbrhubarbrhubarbrhubarbrhubarb human rights claptrap?
YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS!
February 1, 2007 at 3:38 pm
Awesome writing — great read. Thanks for posting it.
Now, for some reason those links are not working when I click them. Are they working when you click on them? I hope it’s not my teaching ;)
February 2, 2007 at 12:47 am
little indian…
Shhh…don’t say stuff like that. It’s unamerican. The Saudi Royal Family are in business with the Bushes through the Carlyle group. They call Prince Bandar’s Bush family nickname is “Bandar Bush”.
I know your heart’s in the right place and everything, but you are mistaken. They may be radical, draconian, despotic “Islamofacists” (what DOES that word mean?), but they are OUR radical, draconian, despotic “Islamofacists.”
February 2, 2007 at 1:03 am
The problem as I see it is that the fight against terrorism is mixed up with too many other issues.
There is no clear vision, and I have yet to hear anyone define what victory in Iraq should look like.
It’s a mess of Biblical proportions and I fear we are losing the fight by losing the hearts and minds of the moderate Muslims who ordinarily would have been pro-American.
February 2, 2007 at 1:10 am
Are you serious or are you joking with this post?
There were an estimated 100,00 people in DC at the march. The marchers were not America haters that would be the terrorists who crashed planes into the World Trade Center towers.
The people who were out protesting the war in Iraq were unsing the first amendment right to speak out against an unnecessary war, that President Bush lied to get us into and that has cost us more than 3,000 American lives and hundreds of billions of dollars. It was not Iraqi people that attack us on 9/11. It was Al Qaeda terrorist led by Osama bin Laden who is still alive.
If Bush was serious about the war on terror, he would have maintained focus on finding and defeating Al Qaeda in Afghanistan including bin Laden.
Those of us who are opposed the war against Iraq love our country as much as you do. We have a passionate commitment to supporting our troops by bringing them home rather than keeping them bogged down in a war with no clear mission, no clear strategy and almost no hope of success.
February 2, 2007 at 1:31 am
The author wants his readers to join him.
I have promised my support, if and when America goes to war against Saudi Arabia, for the same reasons they have invaded Iraq, and is likely to invade Iran.
I do not understand why USA is being selective in who to attack and invade.
Neither can I comprehend why
any oil producing country that has or intends to refuse to trade for petrodollars
is now a legitimate target of USA.
Its not a joke.
Its my interpretation of facts I read.
February 2, 2007 at 1:51 am
Hey guys
Where to start..
Jeremiah, a “holy war” wasn’t a term used in America until 9/11 and religious zeal and commitment is what binds people together. Accountability, shared responsibility and faith, among other things give the spiritual among us strength and hope and a willingness to serve others. However, there is no such thing as universal moral values.
Heres a shocker: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” or some version of that appears in every religion on the planet except for Islam.
There is no Golden Rule in Islam. There is a distinction between believers and unbelievers that is never crossed. Never.
Unbelievers are to be questioned, suspected, resisted and fought. Thats it. Period. Not “tolerated”. Never loved.
The fact that there are legions of committed muslims offering their lives (for a sexually rewarding afterlife) and acting on specific orders of Mohammed, the “perfect example of manhood”, and attempting to bring the world to its knees should invoke fear in you, but I suspect it does not. Your too busy hating anything Bush and anything conservative. Try and enjoy yourself.
Don’t imagine the loose, free love for all things human, political correctness, liberal thinking, best wishes or any amount of appeasement will impress an Islamist and save you.
Indian,
Thanks for your comment. Your fun to read and your committed to your views, and thats admirable.
Let me start with the Saudis. Your right. They are a royal family in control of a nation with massive political importance because they have oil. Otherwise, just another third world police state practicing a medieval barbaric ideology dressed up as religion.
You also confirm my belief that Islam is a murderous, vengeful and just plain evil standard for human behavior. In describing in detail the atrocities visited upon citizens daily, you can see where I’m coming from.That is Islam.
The Saudis and Iranians practice orthodox Islam but are not of the same sect. Iran is Shia, Saudis are Sunni. But both justify wretched behavior in the name of Allah.
We in America and those in the civilized world have great difficulty imagining Islam is anything but just another benign religion, the “religion of peace”, right? That never was true. The insidious “go along to get along” strategy of liberalism and the false guilt of the “haves” of this earth attribute qualities to deeply flawed cultures around the world that they simply do not posess.
In order for a muslim to appear “moderate”, they must deny or ignore the full teachings of their religion. Plain and simple, all muslims are called to supress the infidel and dominate the globe, spreading Allahs word throughout the world,offering 3 choices to the unbeliever: convert, pay the tax and live in servitude, or die.
No peaceful co-existence, no tolerance, no debate. Islam has not been hijacked by “extremists”.
As for doing business with the Saudis, what choice do we have? Oil is king in America. Without it, commerce grinds to a halt and we starve and freeze to death. Get over it.
It seems your a little too wrapped up in Bush hating and left wing slogans to realize the signifigance of your research. Bush will be gone in 2 years and we’re left with these people. Then who will you focus your hate on? Who will you blame for the ills of the world?
Thanks for commenting, both of you.
February 2, 2007 at 2:05 am
“In order for a muslim to appear “moderate”, they must deny or ignore the full teachings of their religion.”
Well, that is true of Christianity and Judaism as well. The Bible tells us to stone our children for disobedience, invoke the death penalty for adultery, kill homosexuals, and the Jews were heavily punished by Jehova in the book of judges for not completeing the genocide they were ordered to perform.
There are actually modern Chrsitians who advocate the revival of these laws in the U.S. They also blow up women’s clinics, assassinate women’s health doctors, rob banks to get money, operate terrorist training camps (millitias) within the US, and gave Timothy McVeigh the inspiration and information needed to carry out the Oklahoma city bombing, and Eric Rudolph to carry out the Olympic Park bombing.
Religion is religion is religion. Good people make good use of it, and bad people make bad use of it.
February 2, 2007 at 2:37 am
Hi Teresa,
Yes, it’s true. Religious fervor has been an excuse for abominable behavior in the name of the Almighty down through history.
However, I’m not here to apologize for this behavior, I didn’t commit these acts.
I do want to point out that Jews and Christians haven’t formed terror groups around the world and quote scripture to justify random killings of non-combatants.
You seem to imagine a parallel equality of all faiths and spread your disdain uniformly around. I’m certain this seems fair and tolerant of you and displays your magnanimous side. But it’s just not so and never was.
I don’t think your views will ever be changed by someone berating you and pointing out your flaws in reason and logic. I do believe Rosie O’Donnell would be proud of your asessment since she beat you to it 2 months ago on TV.
Condescend to people of faith if you must, but save your derision for what’s proving to be the most serious threat to civilization since the plague.
Thanks for commenting.
February 2, 2007 at 3:02 am
Hi Nista,
No joke. I dont think anything I wrote was inaccurate. The group I described actually existed for a few hours and contained the groups I listed and then some. I understand that pan-pacifism and self loathing makes for strange bedfellows.
I know your not an America hater per se, but those who would do America great harm linger with you and people like you. Laying down, dogs, fleas, you get the point.
Keep in mind the predominate attitude of the groups I pointed out would’nt miss a beat blaming America for all the evils in the world, war or not. Bush and this damn war is just the current focus. If there were no war, these people would still act to undermine US policy and work to deconstruct society as we know it.
Some patriots go to “peace” rallys not realizing the primary reason for the gatherings..to destroy American will, confidence and strength. At any cost.
The Constitution gives all of us the right to freely assemble and petition the government. Those with no love of the Constitution or this country use this privelege against us. Sad, but true.
I dont know how long it’s going to be until the Islamist nutjobs attack us again, but I suspect when your dealing with a culture and ideology that perceives retreat as weakness, any movement away from the current struggle will prompt an emboldened round of attacks here and abroad.
This isn’t the 60’s. This isn’t about getting stoned and griping about the man. The world will never be what we’ve come to expect ever again.
Once Bush moves on, the people your defending will shift their focus and the hate parade will begin anew. Trust me Mike.
Thanks for your comment.
February 2, 2007 at 3:36 am
“Well, that is true of Christianity and Judaism as well.”
It is not true of Christianity at all. Anyone who claims that the Crusades or the Inquisition are grounded in Biblical truths is simply wrong.
It is not true of Judaism, either. God told them to clear out the promised land, yes, but that was a one time thing against a particular evil people who had been given hundreds of years to repent.
But when Muslims inflict violence on us, it is in accordance with their holy book.
Teresa is right in that people make good and bad uses of religion. But we need to judge ideologies by what they actually teach, not by the deeds of those who distort the teachings.
February 2, 2007 at 3:52 am
Actually, I was most influenced in my view of religion by Thomas Paine, who got to it a couple hundred years before Rosie O’Donnel.
AS for distain, the distain is for the deletirious effects that people justify using religion, and not for the useful aspects they manage to get from it. As Paine said “every religion is good, which teaches man to be good, and I know of none that teaches him to be bad.” Rights of Man, part two.
He also had a lot of interesting things to say about the political uses of villifying particular religions. Particularly about how governments ferment war primarily as an excuse to raise taxes and enrich their friends.
But then again, like most of the founding fathers, he was a “liberal” and one of the “Intellectual elite” , so what the hell do they know about America?
February 2, 2007 at 4:05 am
Neil,
Who said anything about the crusades or the Inquisition? Although, hey, good examples.
I’m talking about people who preach the Bible today. R.J. Rushdoony, Randall Terry (you might remember him as the spokesman for Terry Schaivo’s family, and former head of Operation Rescue) Gary North, Fred Phelps, Judge Roy Moore…etc. et
Are you denying my assertion that the Bible commands us to stone our children for disobediance, and proclaims the death penalty for adultery, among other things? Believe me, I’ve read the Bible. I was taught the Bible by fundamentalists, and I’ve read it cover-to-cover more than once. Everything Islam is charged with is in there. Most “moderate” Christians ignore those commands. The people I listed above do not. They believe they are on a mission from God to implement Mosaic law in the US.
They incite people to violence including terrorist attacks like I listed, as well as assassinations.
AS I said, good people will be helped on their path to goodness by religion, because that is what they work for. Bad people will find justification for evil in religion. It is the same.
February 2, 2007 at 5:39 am
I am stunned by the amount of comments you receive.
WOW!
February 2, 2007 at 9:21 am
“….As for doing business with the Saudis, what choice do we have? Oil is king in America. Without it, commerce grinds to a halt and we starve and freeze to death. Get over it….”
You have at last confirmed that
1. This is about oil.
2. This is about who will do business with USA.
Every country needs oil.
Most of them have to import oil.
But not all goes around invading countries to get it.
They do business.
It has nothing to do with changing evil regimes or fighting terrorism or spreading democracy.
Answer me this:
WHY DOES OIL HAVE TO BE BOUGHT AND SOLD EXCLUSIVELY IN US DOLLARS?
“…It seems your a little too wrapped up in Bush hating and left wing slogans to realize the signifigance of your research…”
Thanks, you just confirmed the truth
in the significance of my research.
Things would have been lot easier
if your politicians in power
has the courage to admit the real reasons for this drummed up “war against terrorism”.
Be honest and say “OIL FOR DOLLARS ONLY.
TRY TO SELL FOR EUROs AND YOU ARE DEAD”.
“…Bush will be gone in 2 years and we’re left with these people. Then who will you focus your hate on? Who will you blame for the ills of the world?…”
Bush will be gone.
But America’s thirst for oil will not.
America’s need for the world’s demand for dollars will not.
And as you have so bravely confirmed..
“Without it, commerce grinds to a halt and we(USA)STARVE AND FREEZE to DEATH”.
Who ever replaces Bush will not be able to let that happen, can he (or she?).
So the circle of lies and deception > unilateral and unjust wars >
regime changes>
safeguarding OIL FOR $$$
will have to be continued.
I am not playing the blame game.
I am exploring for the real reasons.
I am amazed that in the 21st century
the so called educated masses
of the first world
believes the lies given to justify killing innocent people.
Euro and/or the Rouble will become petro currency, and fairly soon.
The rest of the world will be selling dollars like there is no tomorrow.
You and your countrymen will be left with a gigantic trade deficit and a fiat currency that nobody will touch with a barge pole.
And as you said, you will starve and freeze to death.
That is the changing reality.
You, will have to learn to live with it.
February 2, 2007 at 12:33 pm
Hi Teresa,
“Are you denying my assertion that the Bible commands us to stone our children for disobediance, and proclaims the death penalty for adultery, among other things?”
Yes, I deny that. I’ve read and studied the Bible many times and continue to do so. Those commands were for the Israelites under the Old Covenant. They never applied to non-Israelites and they don’t apply to Christians.
I’m sorry to hear that you were wounded by people who don’t understand scripture very well and do an even worse job of living it out.
If you want to bash Fred Phelps and people like him, then join the club. I don’t know anyone who follows or agrees with him. But to say that is mainstream Christianity is a straw-man.
People who abuse Christian teachings – whether deliberately or out of ignorance – probably bother me even more than they bother you.
I encourage people to focus on the resurrection of Jesus. If that didn’t happen, then by all means don’t waste time with Christianity. But if it did happen, then Christianity is not “the same” as any other religion and I would take it very, very seriously. Judging a religion by those who violate its teachings isn’t fair or wise.
February 2, 2007 at 1:08 pm
Neil,
I would encourage people to focus on the message of Jesus Christ. That, at least, they can see is good without the need for miracles.
What does it matter if Jesus rose from the dead or not (I don’t believe he did)?
If the message is good (and it is) then it should be followed sincerely and soberly through personal discipline.
If those guys I mentioned are so fringe and nobody listenes to them, then why do we have these huge dramas about putting the Ten Commandments (they are in the Old Testiment)in the courtroom? Why did the Terry Schivo arrair hijack our country? Why is there so much hue and cry about how we were founded as a “Christian” nation, and our government should be “Christian”.
Why does God hate Homosexuals still when the stuff against them is from the old testiment?
The mainstream religious right gets it’s rhetoric from these guys. It’s a little watered down, but just by deleting a couple of choice words to dim it down.
February 2, 2007 at 1:40 pm
Teresa,
I think it matters a lot if Jesus rose from the dead. For one thing, the Bible teaches that Christians are to be pitied above all men if that teaching isn’t true. Christians would have taught the wrong things about God and dedicated our lives to the wrong thing.
His resurrection proved that He was who He claimed to be – God in human form. That is an outrageous claim, unless it is true. If He is God then we should trust in him. If He isn’t, then the writings about him are totally unreliable (notice how much of the Gospels focus on the crucifixion and resurrection).
Let me turn the tables and ask why I should “focus on the message of Jesus Christ” if you think the writings about him are unreliable? What makes the message good? Wouldn’t that just be a matter of personal opinion? Suicide bombers think the message they received is good. The people you hate think their message is good.
Why would we follow anything in the Bible if Jesus isn’t who the Bible claims He is? It would just be a book full of thousands of lies. Any wisdom coming from that would be accidental.
Homosexual behavior is described as sinful in the Old and New Testaments, though Jesus died for their sins just like He died for mine. That doesn’t justify Fred Phelps-type behavior, though. There are plenty of non-Christians (such as every society and country ever, at least until the last 10 years in a few western countries) that agree.
I guess I’m not in the mainstream religious right, because I sure don’t get my rhetoric from those guys.
February 2, 2007 at 3:59 pm
Neil,
So, what you are saying is that if Jesus didn’t rise from the dead, it is not a good idea to forgive people who wrong you? Is it wrong to say you should refrain from judging others and only worry about what is lacking in your own behavior?
What did Jesus ever say that becomes untrue if his resurection was untrue? the message of Jesus Christ is consistant with reason and the workings of nature. His resurrection is not. Many of the writings of his apostles are not.
Why must God violate the very nature of his own creation to produce miracles for you to believe? It makes no sense. If God created the world, then the world operates according to his plan and his desire. There whould be no need for God to violate the workings of his creation to prove his power.
The consistant, providincial and elegantly subtle nature of creation is a much more believeable and fitting testimony to God than the Bible, which shows him to be changable, inconsistant, petty, jealous, and frankly, a bit of a prima-donna. It portrays him as being subject to temper-tantrums and regret (the flood for example.)
Which is why the Intelligent Design people have so much trouble. They steal a philosophical footnote from Deiesm and try to make it a foundation for forcing science to reveal their God, who is inconsistant with what is revealed in nature.
The things Jesus actually said and actually advocated for are consistant with reason and if followed concientiously, add to the elevation of humanity.
This is true if he rose from the dead or not.
You say:
“I guess I’m not in the mainstream religious right, because I sure don’t get my rhetoric from those guys.”
Perhaps not, but if you push for instituted prayer in schools, want to institutionalize religious values like unequal rights for homosexuals into our government, help them promote public endorcement of religion, and espouse a nativist agenda that is barely-conceled “Chritian Identity” propaganda a la the KKK (the main proponants of “Christian Identity” philosophy in the past), then you serve their purposes well enough.
They have clearly and publicly stated that all of these issues are important to their goal of a theocratic United States.
February 2, 2007 at 4:55 pm
Neal,
Thanks for posting these awesome comments. They truly are a pleasure to read. As for you not being “mainstream religious right”, well … I consider myself to be very conservative (not necessarily religious — as that term better fits a muslim, but I am a born-again Christian believer) I think you are very mainstream. The left would like to convince everyone that Fred Phelps is the mainstream religious right — and that is not true at all.
As for Teresa lumping people like Randall Terry in with Fred Phelps, well, that’s just insane. Randall Terry has a calling on his life to protect and defend those who are not able to defend themselves, such as the unborn and disabled. This is a noble cause. I appreciate the sacrifices he has made in attempt to save the lives of people such as Terri Schiavo and the millions of children who are brutally murdered in this nation.
I look forward to visiting your blog.
February 2, 2007 at 5:28 pm
Hi Diane
I agree, a “win” in Iraq has no face. Also, I don’t think there are any moderate hearts and minds to win over. There are lukewarm adherents to Islam, and they certainly wish the fundamentalists would knock off the violence, but are too fearful to insist on this publicly.
If you hear about any big muslim rally to protest violence from other muslims or to begin a campaign to out the terrorists in their midst, please let me know.
As ugly as this thought is, it look’s like the Iraq war has finally brought reality home to the West..despite decades of attack after attack, until 9/11, we ignored the little dog nipping at our heels. Islam is coming out of hibernation and on a modern crusade. We western dupes have provided all the tools necessary for our own domination without them having to fire a shot. I think they will, however , and right here in the good old USofA.
When these attacks occur, and they will, I dread the reaction of people, armed and without official sanction and the retaliation that will most certainly be realized.
If you’ve read comments down to here, you see the pertinent discussion between Teresa and Neil, civil and on point. I’m learning a lot and I’m anxiously awaiting the next installment.
Thanks for your blog critic post. He has agreed to get to me eventually.
February 2, 2007 at 7:05 pm
Wytammic,
If you don’t think Randall Terry belongs in with the other, here’s a quote for you:
“Let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good…. If a Christian voted for Clinton, he sinned against God. It’s that simple…. Our goal is a Christian Nation… we have a biblical duty, we are called by God to conquer this country. We don’t want equal time. We don’t want Pluralism. We want theocracy. Theocracy means God rules. I’ve got a hot flash. God rules.”
— Randall Terry, Head of Operation Rescue, from The News Sentinel, Fort Wayne, Indiana, Aug 15, 1993
February 2, 2007 at 8:12 pm
Thanks for the quote Teresa. Though, the … here and the …. there, make me think the quote is taken totally out of context. Do you like taking quotes out of context? If you do, let me know and I can find some from your left wing buddies and re-write them for you. It could be a fun game, though I might be too busy over the weekend to play … we’ll see;) I know I’ll feel a little guilty, because I won’t have to tinker with the quotes I find too much — it’ll be easy. Almost seems like an unfair advantage. Let me know if the game is on. Thanks.
February 2, 2007 at 10:22 pm
Hi Teresa,
Yes, I think forgiveness is a good idea regardless of whether Jesus rose from the dead. I just asked why one would bother to “focus on the message of Jesus Christ” if one thought the writings about him are so unreliable.
My point was that Jesus said a LOT of things. He talked more about Heaven than about Hell. He said that people who lust have committed adultery in their hearts (that should make all the guys and most of the gals squirm!). He claimed to be the way, the truth and the life and that no one comes to the Father except through him. And on and on.
So if someone wants to just pick their favorite sayings of Jesus (“Don’t judge, love your neighbor,” etc.) and ignore the rest because they don’t conform to their worldview then I suppose that is their prerogative. We all quote people even though we may not agree with everything they say.
But people tend to broad brush and say, “teachings of Jesus” or “message of Jesus Christ.” If that is their position then I think it is fair to ask, “Why bother?” I know why I take all his teachings seriously. I think He is God in human form, the creator of the universe, etc.
But if others think He is just some guy who got quoted in a book that has thousands of mistakes and falsely claimed to be inspired by God, then I’m not sure whey they bother with Jesus at all.
Lots of what Jesus said would be untrue if He didn’t rise from the dead. He predicted He would do so, and He claimed to be God a number of times.
I don’t have time to address everything in your last list other than to say that I have not pushed for prayer in schools and the notion that anyone is trying to “institutionalize religious values like unequal rights for homosexuals into our government” is a straw man. Any limitations that exist were there already, and any changes are being driven by the GLBT lobby.
I think we have a lot of points of agreement. I think false teachers at both ends of the spectrum do a great disservice to Jesus’ message. And we both seem to recognize that there is a God who designed all of this. The question is whether that God revealed himself to us in any understandable way other than our human “reason.” Humans have reasoned their way to all sorts of horrible things (I’m not saying that you have, just that many others have), so I would rather have something more objective to go by.
You highlighted some difficulties posed by the Bible, which is fair game. I have investigated the same questions and come to the conclusion that there are solid answers, that the Bible is the Word of God and that Jesus is the only way to forgiveness of my sins and to eternal life. I see that you came to a different conclusion; I only hope it wasn’t solely because of the false messages you have received from Christians. I know there have been times that I have done a lousy job of being an ambassador for Christ and that grieves me.
Peace,
Neil
February 2, 2007 at 11:07 pm
Wytammic,
There are no ellipses around:
“We don’t want equal time. We don’t want Pluralism. We want theocracy. Theocracy means God rules. I’ve got a hot flash. God rules.”
How do you take THAT out of context? Don’t worry, I bet you’ll think up something.
But if you were really worried about refuting the intellectual honesty of the quote, you would find the complete quote and read it. Looking up people you think of as “liberals” and misquoting them will not prove that Randall Terry isn’t a hate-filled Christian Nationalist, but then again, neither would finding the complete text and reading it. Then you could know for sure. But I suspect you would rather not know.
Actually, if you want to see some fun and creative quote mangling, look up David Barton. he likes to do that to the founding fathers, to “prove” that they wanted the US to be a Christian Nation. He also claims that he didn’t know that the Christian Identity movement was racist and anti-Semitic when he spoke for them in the ’90’s.
February 2, 2007 at 11:45 pm
Neil,
I agree that we have a lot in common and that we can talk about easily.
I disagree about the gay marriage amendment. There is currently no institutional ban against gay marriage at the federal level, that is why people are agitating for it. To institutionalize it in our federal government.
February 2, 2007 at 11:52 pm
OK, thanks, I see what you mean now.
February 2, 2007 at 11:52 pm
Hi Teresa,
“We don’t want equal time. We don’t want Pluralism. We want theocracy. Theocracy means God rules. I’ve got a hot flash. God rules.”
Newsflash — That’s part of being a Christian; having God rule. What a concept.
If your point is that by defending children and people who are incapable of defending themselves — this makes you a “hate-filled Christian Nationalist”, well, that’s just odd.
My idea of a hateful person is someone who demands I convert to Islam or be killed. I guess I am just weird that way.
And, just for fun … since we appear to be playing:
“Between now and the time I’m sworn in January 2005, I’m going to use every day to make this president accountable for making a mockery of the words ‘No Child Left Behind.'” John F. Kerry
Did I miss the swearing in ceremony? Or, are democrats still counting votes?
February 3, 2007 at 12:11 am
I think the most important question is why any guy would go around saying, “I’ve got a hot flash.”
February 3, 2007 at 12:41 am
LOL — now that does pose a problem!
February 3, 2007 at 12:50 am
I don’t know why I keep comming over to this blog and leaving comments. It’s a kin to driving past a horriblly gnarly car accident… you know you shouldn’t look, but you just can’t help yourself.
In response to the idea icanplainlysee left about there being no groups in the States that use the bible to embolden their hateful idealogy……. how about the KKK for starters? There’s a nice homegrown hate group for ya, thousands strong all across Ah-merca
TODAY that just love to invoke the name of the Holy of Holy dudes himself.
I read you over and over again icanplainlysee… refering to others that are not of the same ilk as yourself being “magnanimous”, morally superior liberals, “wrong side of history”, those who take the “moral high-ground” for the “little guy” blah, blah, blah….
You must have some real interesting issues with yourself! Do you get out much? Are you that unsatisfied with your own set of beliefs and idealogies?
And I just have to ask…I know this is a little out of line, but forgive me…. are you a proponent of wife beating too? Because as you continue to spew this religo-nationalist hate garbage, wife beating would seem to be the next logical subject for you to take up arms for.
Will your next post’s title be….
“Freedom Haters Take Away Our God Given Right As Red Blooded Americans To Slap Our Spouses Around.”
(O.K., sorry, that was a little out of hand. It was fun though.)
When are we all going to stop arguing about this shit and just get another addiction besides oil?
People… just leave icanplainlysee alone. He’s obviously delusional.
Religion has nothing to do with the natural resource that bubbles under Baghdad. Don’t let icanplainlysee and people like him cloud up the real issue here. OIL!
I love how this blog of your’s started as a political justification for the war in Iraq just a couple months ago, and know in this short time span, it has turned into a full-on bash-fest against every religion besides Christianity as well as a hate chat-group to justify another Christian crusade. Way to go icanplainlysee. You’ve done a great job. Outdone yourself.
And Neil………… wow! You are simply amazing!
I’ve checked out your site. Man.. you can really preach with the best of ’em. You’re obviously a very intelligent man, but…..
“Save It Sister”.
You’ll never be able to make up for the cruel acts that Christians did and continue to do to “lesser” souls.
But… keep trying if it helps you sleep at night. We’re all really pround of you too. Keep up the good work. One more little thing…
Is that really what “God” told the Jews to do? Really? Do you have an audio recording of that? Because I’m dying over here to hear it.
Faith. I’ll never be able to get my head around it…. as much as I try.
Congrats on this much B.S. (mine included of course) dumped onto your site icanplainlysee. You’re the man. Blogging is so great.
Peace.
February 3, 2007 at 1:08 am
Uh, thanks, Lone Ranger. I didn’t realize it was my job to make up for cruel acts that anyone else does. I’m just trying to do my best to follow my Lord and Savior out of gratitude. If your standard for faith is having an audio recording from God then there is no amount of fact or reason that you’ll ever find persuasive.
Peace,
Neil
February 3, 2007 at 1:14 am
wytammic,
I believe it’s the word “theocracy” should raise some hackles, but maybe that’s just me. Randall Terry didn’t say “God rules my life (which, given his personal problems, is debatable)” He said Theocracy, as in God (as Randall Terry sees him) ruling our government.
I am getting the impression that you would love to see Randall Terry’s vision of a Theocratic regime enacted in our government.
Do you think that Left Behind video game where you can shout “Praise the Lord!” while you kill unbelievers is a hoot too? Nothing like rightous vigilante justice.
Then here’s another quote for you:
“When I, or people like me, are running the country, you’d better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we will execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed… If we’re going to have true reformation in America, it is because men once again, if I may use a worn out expression, have righteous testoserone flowing through their veins. They are not afraid of contempt for their contemporaries. They are not even here to get along.”
Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue, at the Aug 8, 1995 U.S. Taxpayers Alliance Banquet in Washington DC, talking about doctors who perform abortions and volunteer escorts.
February 3, 2007 at 1:20 am
Hi Ranger,
As to Neil, I agree. he’s a man comitted to his faith and knows what he believes and why he believes it. Is there any better place to be in life?
For me, It’s never been said that I’m extremely vague on a large number of subjects. I know your serious when you plead that I be censored or at least ignored. This doen’t come as a shock.
A minor point..I made no comment regarding the Bible or anything of that nature, purposely, as not to butt in with Teresa and Neil. No biggie.
The question about when I last beat my wife only points up, once again, the emotion you bring with your positions as opposed to a calm, measured fact-based knowledge. But, thats ok.
We’ve had a few discussions and although we disagreed, I recognized you were convinced of your opinion and were just plain angry that everyone didn’t see things the way that you did. Frustrating, I’m sure. I would feel exactly the same way except I’m not a young man and I realize most people don’t care what I think.
I also feel like the gawker at a car wreck sometimes, at once with pity for the victims, but soon to think that i’m grateful It wasn’t me.
As for “getting your head around faith” ,and since you say you do try, consider this:
“Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
Don’t we all get just a little too focused on the things we can touch, or buy, or feel?
Oddly, I’m glad your here, even provoked to return, though it’s just to see a wreck.
Thanks
February 3, 2007 at 1:37 am
icanplainlysee,
Thanks for the space to talk to Neil. It’s been refreshing.
I was actually going to offer to continue this conversation elsewhere if he wished, to save you the traffic.
February 3, 2007 at 1:41 am
Neil, Hmmph. I applaude you for your faith. Sincerely. My apparent problem is that I have no standard for faith.
I guess you’re right though. My first instinct is to go right for the cliched question of proof. I’m sorry. That is much to parochial of me. Or should I say, provincial of me?
All I meant re:
“I didn’t realize it was my job to make up for cruel acts that anyone else does” …
I’ve read you making excuses for the past sins and onerous activities of your fellow Chrisitians on more than a couple of occasions. Not just on this thread. And it just makes me wonder why you’re so worried about it. Don’t feel so bad. And don’t worry. We, non-believers, don’t hold you persnnally accountable… no more accountable than the living descendents of white slave owners in the States.
Hey… that would make for an interesting new thread guys. Lets take it from Iraq to justifiying war to bashing “freedom haters” to acknowleging that all Muslims are scum that want to take “our land”, right down to blacks harbouring terrorists right here in the good old U.S.of A. Seems like a logical next step in the progression of this dwindling thread to me.
February 3, 2007 at 1:47 am
No worries Teresa. My apologies for getting into that. But glad to give you a chance to get a drink. Just had to say my “peace”.
Have at it.
icanplainlysee….. just trying to have some fun.
Want to smoke a joint? Just kidding. ;)
It is amazing to see where one little post about some fake naked people can go though. Isn’t it?
Peace.
February 3, 2007 at 1:54 am
Almost forgot.
Touche re: “I also feel like the gawker at a car wreck sometimes, at once with pity for the victims, but soon to think that i’m grateful It wasn’t me.”
Well put.
February 3, 2007 at 1:58 am
1loneranger…
wait. How did you know I went and got a drink? Did my typing get even worse than usual? (I really need a new keyboard, this one sticks)
Or do you work for the government? If so, can you see me waving right now? See? No subversive activity. Just a normal, law-abiding suburban mom/martial arts instructor.
Don’t worry that place I go to twice a week, it’s not an al-queda training camp. It’s just a martial arts class for special needs students. Could be embarassing if you go in there guns blazing, you know…
Although I can understand if you did, that one five-year-old is a muslim arab, but he’s just acting unusual because he’s autistic.
February 3, 2007 at 1:59 am
Damn, one more thing. Can’t let you go without hearing your thoughts on the little group called the KKK. Ideas, thoughts? Talk amongst yo’selves. I’ll be reading.
February 3, 2007 at 1:59 am
Hi Teresa,
I’ve enjoyed every moment of this now two day event. Your welcome anytime. I’m waiting for the outcome with Tammi lol
Thanks Ranger, maybe I shoulda beena poet.
February 3, 2007 at 2:00 am
Teresa….. awesome.
February 3, 2007 at 2:04 am
icanplainlysee – my apologies if I got us off track – I watched too much tv as a kid and have a short attention span.
Teresa – feel free to email me at neil@4simpsons.com – I enjoyed the dialogue.
loneranger – Going after proof is great. That’s how I became a Christian. I grew up in the church, but let’s just say I wasn’t paying very close attention for the first 28 years or so. I was rebellious and skeptical. It was only after asking lots of tough questions and being satisfied with the evidence (among other things) that I came to faith. That doesn’t mean I’m right, of course, it just means I won’t fit in any stereotypes of brainwashed, unquestioning youth. But don’t let that stop you!
Sorry, no latent guilt here. I just respond to broad anti-Christian accusations where they come up because the reasoning is usually flawed. If I misquote you, that’s my fault, not yours. So if people do the opposite of what Christ said yet do it in His name, that’s their fault, not His. And certainly not mine. Of course I don’t condone those actions. But I make it a habit not to apologize for things that 1) I didn’t do and 2) happened 1,000 years ago.
February 3, 2007 at 2:18 am
P.S. thx for the kudos on my website / faith. I realized you were being sincere. I think it can be an unfair representation of the “real” me, though – I suppose for balance I should add pictures with captions like, “here’s me being selfish” and “here’s one of me being greedy and impatient.”
February 3, 2007 at 2:18 am
The KKK are really bizzare.
They have a particularly weird type of religion that has become known as “Christian Identity”. They believe that the aryan race are the “real” isrealites of the Bible, and the people we now call “Jews” are the offspring of Eve and the Serpent.
“Christian Identity”, “Christian Reconstructionism” and “Christian Nationalism” are all smewhat related sharing a variety of ideas.
Many Neo-nazis subscribe to this religious philosophy. They believe that Armageddon will be a race war with Western European Christians against Non-Christians and non-whites (black Christians won’t get any perks for being Christian)
February 3, 2007 at 2:23 am
Hey Neil,
If your nothing, your honest. I appreciate you adding to my life in this way.
What was the topic?
Oh, and I’ve never had a hotflash, but I do blush easily. My wife and sisters tell me thats a good thing.
February 3, 2007 at 2:29 am
Bizarre is an understatement. My general thought of the KKK is, “How pathetic do you have to be to have ‘hate’ as a hobby?”
My next thought is The Simpsons episode where Krusty the Clown realizes that his “Krusty’s Komedy Klassics” spells out KKK.
Loneranger, what are your thoughts?
February 3, 2007 at 2:43 am
Teresa,
Good one, but at least Randall does say that he’s going to try them :) That’s more than the murdered children get. They’ve killed no one and yet are slaughtered daily.
Actually, with Islam, they skip that trial process, but I’m sure you still like them and baby killers better than Randall Terry, who has actually killed no one.
My turn?
“I’m an internationalist. I’d like to see our troops dispersed through the world only at the directive of the United Nations. ” John F. Kerry
February 3, 2007 at 2:55 am
Oh boy……my thoughts are becoming sleepy. I am in Atlantic Coast Time here boys and goyls. I have to go to bed now.
All I can say is it has been fun.
And don’t forget “think for yourselves”, “oil is the enemy” and sure it is pathetic to use hate as a hobby… but, the KKK and “All Religion” ain’t no hobby folks.
(That reminds me, icanplainlysee…. please stop using the liberal anthems as your fodder.) You can do better.
peace
February 3, 2007 at 2:56 am
The Religion of Peace
February 3, 2007 at 2:57 am
wytammic,
“Sadly, there is much more that could be mentioned, but this is sufficient to demonstrate that even if Randall’s past efforts for the cause of Christ were considered, he has completely disqualified himself from any leadership position in the Christian community through his unwillingness to be held accountable for his adultery, theft, lies, deceptions, misrepresentations, perjury, failing to provide for his first wife and children, and evasion of church discipline.”.
Flip Benham –Randall Terry’s successor as the head of Operation Rescue
February 3, 2007 at 3:12 am
o.k. i am still reading.. damn Teresa, that was good!
February 3, 2007 at 3:23 am
To wytammic:
Below is a direct quote from a ‘comments page’ regarding the recent trip of Pelosi to Iraq a couple weeks ago. That is the first thing I found at your suggested
“‘The Religion of Peace'” hyper link wytammic.
Oh….I Can Plainly See. Very peaceful.
wardmama4
January 26th, 2007 at 11:40 am
Can we all say ‘Target rich environment’? Here’s to hoping for a sad, tragic, and fatal ‘insurgent’ event while these worthless people are traveling to and fro.
I just hope that the accompany soldiers do not suffer any ill effects. Of two of the most worthwhile to lose – Pelosi and Murtha are top of my list – especially since they’d as soon spit on the Troops as actually give a damn.
rangah
February 3, 2007 at 3:35 am
wytammic,
This requires some context to fully appreciate. You seem a tolerant sort, so I’m sure you’ll allow me a little latitude.
“Shoot them in the head, blow up a car, riddle their body with bullets like they do in the movies. That’s how you kill someone”
–James Charles Kopp (a Christian Identity adherent frequently in the company of Randall Terry, even accompanying him to jail*) on what constitutes “premeditated” Arguing that his execution (without a trial) of Dr. Barnett Slepian was not pre-meditated.
*supporting quote from the New York Times:
In July 1988, when Randall Terry drove through the night from his home in Binghamton, N.Y., to Atlanta to start the series of anti-abortion protests that would finally put his new hard-line group, Operation Rescue, onto America’s front pages, James Charles Kopp was in the van riding alongside him, said former leaders of Operation Rescue.
And when Mr. Terry was arrested on the first day of Operation Rescue’s “Siege of Atlanta,” Mr. Kopp followed him into jail, said the leaders, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. Along with more than 100 other Operation Rescue members, according to some people who were there, Mr. Kopp remained in jail for 40 days and adhered to Mr. Terry’s orders not to give a real name to the police or courts.
After his release, Mr. Kopp returned to Operation Rescue’s Binghamton headquarters, and was there working alongside Mr. Terry as the group’s power and influence in the anti-abortion movement surged in late 1988 and 1989, according to the former leaders of Operation Rescue.
February 3, 2007 at 4:06 am
woops, I stuttered.
Wytammic gets two hits before I do another one.
February 3, 2007 at 4:45 am
So, at least you are a fan of Operation Rescue?
February 3, 2007 at 12:32 pm
No, not really. I AM however, a fan of my uncle’s family who have taken in mothers who were pregnant and couldn’t support themselves, cared for them, supported them, and helped them not get the abortions they thought they needed until someone reached out to them (and then continued to help as needed when the kids were born so they wouldn’t go hungry/go without medical care/be on the street)
They used their religious beliefs to inspire them to help women and support children.
I’m not a fan of people who physically attack women in parking lots, scream at them, kidnap them and call them nasty names.
I’m not a fan of blowing up buildings, and stopping women from getting medical care.
When we lived in Alabama, I had no medical insurance, and I went to get my yearly check-up, and I had to cross a police line to get a basic medical check-up because of these folks.
I’m told repeatedly that only Muslims do that.
February 3, 2007 at 2:57 pm
Hi Teresa,
My problem would be getting “my basic medical checkup” from a clinic that does general baby killing. I’d look for doctors who actually believe in preserving life and not destroying it. Yeah, I know, no health insurance card is being played, but a girl still has to have some standards.
I couldn’t find much ammo at Media Matters but did find this heartfelt statement from Ted Kennedy regarding Miss Mary Jo Kopechne. She was sure lucky that Teddy wasn’t intoxicated at the time – or else he couldn’t have made all those repeated attempts to save her life. Oh well, at least he tried;)
February 3, 2007 at 3:39 pm
Teresa, what your Uncle’s family did is terrific. I wish things like that got more press, because they vastly outnumber the bombings and such that pro-lifers are the first to denounce. Like most issues there are a spectrum of activities, and some get reported more than others.
Crisis Pregnancy Centers do a lot of things for women in need but they don’t get much press (or if they do it is sometimes critical because abortion clinics view them as the enemy and the media is 90% pro-choice).
I visited one a few years ago and was admittedly skeptical. But I was blown away by how well run they were and what a great approach they took. Staffed with mostly volunteers and a few professionals paid below-market wages, they provide free pregnancy tests, ultrasounds, maternity clothes, diapers, cribs, formula, counseling, post-abortion trauma counseling, and classes for various lifeskills such as parenting. They share the Gospel with everyone who comes in (with permission, of course) but everyone gets the same services regardless of their worldview. Their training model is superb – the clients get credits when they attend the free training that they can use to buy new toys, clothes, diapers, etc. It helps them feel like they are eaarning something instead of just being given a handout.
I have volunteered there as a counselor to the guys that come in and now am co-teaching a class called Man-to-Man with another board member. We are really enjoying sharing a Biblical model of being a husband and a father. The guys have been very receptive and eager to ask questions.
I’ll save my thoughts on Planned Parenthood for another day!
February 3, 2007 at 4:18 pm
wytammic
So, what you’re is saying that it’s OK for women who want basic health care to be brutalized because some religious fanatic doesn’t like their choice of health clinic.
There were no surgeries of any kind performed at the clinic where I went. All they did was exams, health consultations, and perscriptions for birth control. As I was new to the area, didn’t know anyone, and didn’t have insurance, Planned Parenthood seemed the best option since I knew they would have the services I needed.
Since I couldn’t pay, they were losing money on my care, so I would think that you would LOVE that I went there. Also, since I was getting birth control to prevent an unwanted pregnancy that I would not be able to afford to give a child proper care afterward, I would think you would like that as well.
Also, it was the late eighties, so “crisis pregnancy centers” were unheard of (at least I’d never heard of them).
It’s easy to say that an uninsured newly-wed should make what you consider to be the “moral” choice. It’s probbably easy to spit at her, try to attack her, call her a whore and bomb the clinic of her choice. I’m glad you have the freedom to support such violence, and then blame that experiance on the person subjected to it rather than those perpetrating it.
But luckily, we live in the United States where (for now) laws limit the amount of damage you can inflict on someone due to your religions beliefs.
wytammic,
Here’s your quote. since you don’t like ellipses, I’ll just leave the whole thing rather than trying to cut out the non-essentials while still giving the important information:
Christian Terrorists Kill 44, Wound 118 in Attacks in Northeast India
GUWAHATI, India (AFP)
October 2, 2004
Some 44 people were killed and 118 wounded in three nearly simultaneous bomb blasts Saturday morning in Dimapur, Nagaland’s commercial hub, in what a top official called the “worst ever terrorist strike” in the tiny state’s history.
Gunmen in neighbouring Assam state later killed 15 villagers and injured a dozen more, police said.
“There were limbs everywhere and blood was splattered all over,” said student leader T. Zheviho who was at crowded Dimapur railway station where one bomb exploded as passengers awaited a train.
Two other bombs went off in the Hong Kong market, which sells Chinese goods, and an adjacent market.
“I had a miraculous escape,” Zheviho told AFP by telephone from Dimapur, 70 kilometers (45 miles) east of Nagaland capital Kohima.
Police said the plastic explosive RDX appeared to have been used in the railway blast that created a huge crater beside a platform.
“We found a briefcase with fuse wires… it contained RDX and a timer-device,” V. Peseyie, Dimapur additional police chief, said.
Seventeen more people were killed in a wave of attacks in neighbouring Assam, police said.
Unidentified attackers raked shoppers with gunfire at a marketplace in Makri Jhora village, 290 kilometres (180 miles) west of Assam’s main city of Guwahati, killing 11 and injuring about a dozen, police said.
The same gunmen later shot dead four more villagers in a nearby forest, police superintendent L. R. Bishnoi told AFP. Two more people were killed and 10 injured in two blasts in the Assamese district of Bongaingaon, 220 kilometres (136 miles) from Guwahati, Bishnoi said.
One person was killed and seven wounded in an earlier bomb blast in Assam.
Police also reported two other bombings in a village on the outskirts of Guwahati in which four people were injured.
There were no immediate claims of responsibility for the day of bloodshed in the insurgency-infested northeast where some 30 guerrilla groups are battling for greater autonomy or independence.
The attacks occurred as India marked the 135th anniversary of the birth of Mahatma Gandhi who waged a campaign of non-violence to free the country from British rule.
“It is distressing such violence broke out on the birth anniversary of Mahatma Gandhi,” Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said in the capital New Delhi.
Nagaland’s ill-equipped hospitals battled to treat the wounded.
“Many have multiple face and abdomen wounds. They’re in a state of trauma. We’re trying to cope. We’ve never had such a devastating emergency,” said doctor T. Lotha at a private hospital in Dimapur treating blast victims.
Nagaland Chief Minister Neibhiu Rio said at least 26 people were killed in the Dimapur blasts and another 86 were in hospital. “The death toll may go up as many are in a very critical condition,” he said.
“This is the worst ever terrorist strike in Nagaland. People are still dealing with the shock — they’re not yet thinking about who to blame.”
Mourners crowded churches across Nagaland, which is mostly Christian, to pray for the victims.
The blasts were the second major burst of violence in the northeast since mid-August. Fifteen people, many of them children, were killed in a rebel attack on an Independence Day parade in Assam August 15 for which the United Liberation Front of Asom claimed responsibility.
The armed insurgency in Nagaland began soon after much of the local population converted to Christianity. Many militant groups, seeking to secede from India to form an independent Christian state, are funded and armed by the Southern Baptist Church. Some of the groups such as the National Liberation Front of Tripura have been involved in a campaign of “gunpoint conversions” and “ethnic cleansing” of native non-Christians, which has left over 50,000 dead and many more refugees over the past two decades.
February 4, 2007 at 2:58 am
I have been operating under a delusion. In an effort to be fair minded I assumed that there were moderate Muslims who were just not receiving attention to their moderate voices.
I was wrong.
February 4, 2007 at 5:18 am
Diane,
The crimes described above were comitted by people calling themselves Christians.
I believe that they are Christians, in so much as they probably worship Christ in their own way, and believe that he is the son of God.
That is the problem I have with the current push to theocratize the US. I believe the people fueling that push are worshiping Christ in their own way…and not a good way. Not in a way that lends itself to freedom of concience.
People have been telling me to learn the lessons of Islamic tyranny. It looks to me exactly like any other kind of religious tyranny.
It is the poor man’s tyranny. It costs nothing to get an army of people to do your bidding and brutally kill others who don’t conform. Secular tyranny costs money and has to be justified and is easily challeneged. Which is why even Stalin and Castro, whose tyrrany was/is technically secular has to have religious aspects, making them the Gods of their people and able to appear to be the only hope.
I think that the lessons of Islamic tyrrany is not that Islam is inherantly violent, but that tyrrany is, and it makes good use of whatever religion it finds, exploits it when it can, and changes it subtly to suit the needs of the day.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”
–Voltaire
February 4, 2007 at 6:01 am
Hi Teresa,
I’ve purposely not submitted comments over the last couple of days. I would like to point out that you seem bound and determined to lump all people who lay claim to religion, even those you know little or nothing about, together. Your contempt for people of faith may be obvious to everyone but you, but it’s there in your words.
I’m not certain what your motivation would be to insist ALL people of faith use their spiritual beliefs as weapons aginst others. You statement a while back about the “religion is religion…” and the assumption that some use it for good and some for bad is no response, only a sidestep.
Do you think God is a man made creation like say, Karl Marx? If your answer is yes, then don’t waste your time responding. If not, then…
Why do you point to the most extreme, even ludicrous examples as though they represent all the rest? You’ve done this repeatedly for 2 days.
On principle, are you able to make a plain statement of your belief? If not, why not?
Do you spend your time with only those that agree with you? This will, and maybe has, made you great at attacking but short on logic or reason.
Read back over your own comments. You seem ever ready to condemn and accuse, with some over arching superiority regarding the pitiful, God believing fools. Why?
Why do you agressively attack people who practice Constitutionally protected rights to unfettered religious practice whether you think their evil and stupid or not?
Hank
February 4, 2007 at 6:06 am
Oh, and if you happen to be an atheist, for whatever reasons you feel are adequate, then so be it.
Look elsewhere to be attacked for your lack of faith.
Hank
February 4, 2007 at 6:38 am
Teresa my comment was an admission and a disavowal of my ideas about moderate Muslims. I now believe them to be a mythical group, often talked about, often referred to, yet never seen, or heard from.
I fear that if they aren’t found and goaded into action, we will soon be engaged in WWIII.
February 4, 2007 at 12:33 pm
Diane,
That’s unfortunate. If you would like, you could come and meet some of my neighbors, or the parents of some of the kids I teach. Believe it or not, some of them are very religious Muslims who originally voted for George “W” becsue of his stance on moral values abd believe that “jihad” is supposed to be a personal struggle, and oppose blowing stuff up.
February 4, 2007 at 1:08 pm
“I would like to point out that you seem bound and determined to lump all people who lay claim to religion, even those you know little or nothing about, together. Your contempt for people of faith may be obvious to everyone but you, but it’s there in your words.”
Hank,
If you really believe that is my position, then you haven’t been paying attention.
Have I ever made derogatory comments about prayer? About introspection? about using your religion to test yourself to be a better person? Have I ever said we should close down churches and round up people of faith? No. Actually, that has been YOUR consistant position regarding Muslims.
What I HAVE tried to say is that people of faith should be careful to be introspective about what their positions are with regards to how they treat others, as religion has historically been used to justify truly inhuman things, so simply believeing something passionatly is not enough.
I don’t oppose constitutionally protected behaviors. I oppose incitement to violence, assaulting people, blowing up buildings and killing people for not conforming to your religious views. Oh yeah, and open delarations of intent to take over our goverment and change it’s function from it’s foundation as a secular democracy to a Theocratic Plutocracy.
If there’s one think I’ve learned for the debacle in the Middle East, it’s that those kinds of governements are bad for the world and for the people that live there. If there’s one lesson to take from history, it’s that bad stuff can be done by any people, and justified under any religion, if people don’t temper it with reason.
I’m just pointing out that when people stray from the foundations of their religion, bad things happen, and that can happen in any religion. Of course Christianity isn’t “bad” because there are bad people who call themselves Christians who do bad things in the name of Chrsitanity.
And pointing out that there are bad people doing bad things in the name of Christianity doesn’t make me anti-Christian at all. I never said ALL Christians do these things.
You demand to know my religious affiliation. I am surprised that you have to ask, since you are such a knowledgable religious and historical scholar.
I am a deist. I hold most of the same foundational beliefs as Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson and George Washington, James Madison (you might know him from a little-known work: the constitution) John Hancock and Benjamin Franklin, among others.
While I think you would agree that their efforts to protect religious freedom showed that they held religion in high regard, they were also very suspicious of the tendancy of religon to be used to justify unjustifyable behavior. They were quite specific in their writings. I did a list of a few of my favorite quotes on my webpage under the heading “Praise the Lord! and pass the ammunition”.
However, I would urge you to not rely on the quotes, as when they are out of context they are not nearly as powerful as reading the original works in their totality.
Thomas Paine’s Common Sense, Age of Reason, and Rights of Man are particularly interesting.
The other guys are also good, but they tend to get side-tracked and lose their focus.
I’m not sure that there is much point in continuing this conversation if you are determined to read me the wrong way, and inject ideas I don’t hold into my statements.
February 4, 2007 at 2:47 pm
I’ve met and employed moderate Muslims, so I know they are out there. I just wish they were more vocal. But the real test – as with Christianity and other religions – is, “What does the religion really teach?”
Perhaps the bad guys that Teresa mentions are really Christians in the sense that they trust Jesus for their salvation, but they are just doing a lousy job of showing it. That is between them and God. But at least in some incidents they aren’t following what the Bible teaches.
The peaceful Muslims, on the other hand, are NOT doing what the Koran teaches. We are glad to have them behave that way, of course, but they aren’t following their religion that closely.
With respects to theocratizing the U.S. – man, if that is what Bush and other were aiming at he has done a lousy job of it. If you look at major social / moral issues like abortion and “gay marriage,” these are areas where you don’t even need religion to argue against them.
When I teach pro-life reasoning I deliberately break it down between the Biblical view of the sanctity of life and the concept of forgiveness to those that avail themselves of it (to use with Christians only) and secular reasoning (really quite simple if one is ready to do a little work).
February 4, 2007 at 3:56 pm
Niel,
I’ve been meaning to ask about the sanctity of life issue, but I’ve had a difficult time finding someone I can get a response from (my religious friends refuse to answer on the grounds that they believe they don’t have sufficient knowledge to address it properly, and other religious people I have asked have simply yelled at me or ignored me). You seem a likely candidate for getting a straight response.
The Biblical basis for sanctity of life is a little confusing, because in Exodus, the penalty for causing the death of a fetus is a fine to be determined by the father and the judges, whereas the penalty for killing a man is death. This seems to give more moral weight to the death of a man than to the death of the fetus.
Otherwise, I don’t recall anything in the New Testament that address the issue that specifically.
While the example given in Exodus seems to imply the accidental (or at least incidental)death of the fetus, no more is said of it, whereas there are very specific modifying circumstance to the penalty for the killing of a man. This seems to indicate that the death of the fetus is more in the line of a compensatory value rather than moral value.
Since this seems to be an area of intense study for you, and you seem to be a mature and thoughtful Christian, I thought you would be a good person to ask.
February 4, 2007 at 3:58 pm
Neil,
Sorry I mispelled your name. I’ve got a bit of an “ei” “ie” problem. Well, really a difficulty with vowels in general.
No disrespect intended.
February 4, 2007 at 6:51 pm
Hi Teresa – Good question re. Exodus – I’ll drop back later and try to respond. If I recall correctly, that is an interesting passage in that both sides have tried to claim it for their reasoning.
Really, no problem on the misspelling. You probably get that a lot as well. I get it misspelled a lot. I just tell people that as long as they don’t spell it with a “k” then I don’t mind.
February 4, 2007 at 9:27 pm
Back again . . . I’m assuming the passage in question is Exodus 22:21-25 which reads as follows in the NIV (New International Version) translation: “If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life . . .”
First, I would point you to this article which I think does a nice job of explaining how the confusion arose and what the original text most likely meant.
Passages like this are interesting because they bring up a few important Bible study principles. One is that while Christians believe that the original writings were inspired by God, the same is not necessarily true of all translations. This isn’t a problem with most passages (every translation I’ve seen says “love your enemies” while none say “hate your enemies”) but for some passages further study is required. The good news is that we have reliable copies of the original manuscripts so we can work from there.
Another important aspect of Bible study is to let the clear explain the unclear. Christians generally believe that while God inspired all the text it doesn’t mean that every verse is equally clear or equally important.
Verses like, “for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” are more important than “He went to Bethany and lodgeth there.” I think that if the Exodus passage is properly understood it gives a clear pro-life view, but even if it was a grey area we have plenty of other clear verses to look towards, such as “don’t murder.”
Thanks for asking. Hope the article helps (I didn’t rehash it here because I thought it laid out the reasoning better than I could). Let me know what you think.
February 5, 2007 at 5:12 am
Hey Neil,
Thanks for the straight answer. I’d like to talk more, but I’ve got a big week coming up and a blog I’ve been neglecting.
I’ll send you an e-mail soonish.
Thanks everyone for the exchanges. I gotta go, at least for a while.
February 5, 2007 at 10:35 pm
>>>How do you feel about your fellow Americans exercising their Constitutional rights to free speech and assembly?
I’m more of the opinion that these are NATURAL rights, not to be thougth of as CONSTITUTIONAL rights. The Constitution’s job is only to delineate the form of organization by which we Americans might govern ourselves. The Bill of Rights to the Constitution exists not to CREATE rights, but to remind all readers that these rights are inalienable and beyond the reach of constitutional government.
>>>How do you separate patriotic dissent from seditious activity?
You don’t. A nation and a people who can’t tolerate a little good-natured sedition every now-and-then is doomed to failure.
>>>How do you view those that want to exercise their rights, but seem oblivious to facts and substance?
The ignorant have a right to their opinion, and I’m sure they feel the same way about me. (Being blonde, I’ve gotten used to being thought of as “ill informed”. After getting a boob job, that opinion of me became nearly universal. Frankly, I’ve found it to be somewhat empowering — it’s now easy to surprise people.)
>>>How do you decide where to draw the line between honest disagreement and agenda driven willfull ignorance?
What’s the difference between ignorance and apathy? I don’t know… and I don’t care.
>>>How many times have you spoken out against government decisions at any level?
I try to do this at least hourly when I’m awake. It was hard to keep up with the schedule during the Superbowl yesterday, but I managed.
>>>How would you react if your protests were ignored and you were penalized for participating?
Keep my head down until I could escape the country. Sadly, Canada is one of the few choices.
>>>How much would you like to see rationality and civility returned to public discourse?
Rationality? That would be nirvana. Civility I can do without, though….
>>>How long can you hold your breath?
Depends if I’m having an orgasm.
February 27, 2007 at 3:00 pm
What this world needs is The LORD and ONLY Savior Jesus Christ.
Visit “Living Hope In Jesus” (www.livinghopeinjesus.com) and find the treasures that The LORD Jesus has waiting for you!
March 16, 2007 at 2:21 pm
>>>What this world needs is The LORD and ONLY Savior Jesus Christ.
OK… I’ll go with that. And Splenda. I can’t make it thru the morning without a Vente Starbucks, two spendas and room for some soy milk. I think Jesus would agree with that.
…and Merlot. Jesus liked wine, right?
….ohhhh…. and that cute little evening bag I bought at Macy’s on sale last week…. the one with the rhinestone strap. They match my sandals, and Jesus liked sandals, right?
But I’m not into long walks in the desert. Beach, yes. Desert, no. It’s really bad for my complexion.
March 16, 2007 at 8:12 pm
Hey “Living Hope”
Here’s the Truth:
Richard Dawkins on God